City Council Meeting June 2, 2014

0:01:10thank you good evening everyone welcome to the meeting of the El Cerrito city council thank you all for coming we will start out with the Pledge of Allegiance and I will be leading it tonight uh you may either say the Pledge of Allegiance or observe a moment of

0:01:35silence thank you all for coming again I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all the next item on the agenda is Council and staff Communications

0:02:03I'll just give one I wanted to mention that I and also council member Friedman attended the Ohlone Greenway fun run on Saturday which was a run from the plaza run bike or walk from the plaza over to Del Norte Bart and there was a festival afterwards at DMV where there were a lot

0:02:19of great booths promoting Fitness and Transit and it was a great first annual event for the city foreign well okay I have a few comments I also attended the Fun Run and I did uh I wasn't originally going to because I've been having mechanical problems but I ended up doing it and I

0:02:42did Wheel the whole distance and enjoyed it very much and um I also attended the um sir the luncheon for the 70th graduation of El Cerrito High School um which was held at spangers on May 21st and I uh on May 28th I attended the Exchange Club officer of the year

0:03:14ceremony and for El Cerrito the officer honored was the one that we acknowledged in our last meeting officer Bailey the Cason and I also attended last um on May 30th um a luncheon put on by East Bay mud on the state of the drought and I have a handout from that

0:03:44that I will give to the city clerk so that she can put in the packet so that you can get the detail that we got it's the PowerPoint presentation and this afternoon I attended the volunteer appreciation for the adult education program for Contra Costa for excuse me for West County

0:04:09School District which was held at Christ Lutheran Church and there were five different Adult Ed Senior programs represented at that and they had a lot of all the performances were by seniors and they included dancing uh singing including one song that was done in German

0:04:30and it was really quite nice and if you ever get a chance to do that I encourage you to do so um and with that let's see um are there any staff okay not seeing any we will move on on our agenda to the oral Communications from the public and this is for items that are either on the consent calendar

0:04:58or items that are not on the agenda at all if you'd like to speak on an item that is on the agenda then you can do so at the time we discuss that item do we have any we have four speaker slips and I think the first is from Al Miller we're able to send council members staff

0:05:23first I would like to speak in support of your letter in opposition to ab2145 item 5B on the consent calendar this opposition I believe is needed to preserve and maximize our ability to take advantage of Community Choice aggregation of power if we do want to I also speak in on item 5D in support of

0:05:47the Proclamation recognizing June as the LGBT pride month in El Cerrito I believe your approval will strengthen El Cerrito's sense of inclusion in our community tomorrow since we're meeting tonight I know you all know and realize that tomorrow's election day I would like to encourage everybody to

0:06:08exercise the most important responsibility we as citizens have and that's to give our voice at the polls everybody's should take that seriously I believe and give us your opinion I believe the more people would vote the better the results of the election will be even if I might not agree with them

0:06:26I also want to mention that in earlier school bond measures to rebuild the schools in our school district other parts of the district voted in support of those measures which have either built or or have been approved and are providing funds to rebuild and bring all

0:06:44of the schools in El Cerrito up to current earthquake safety and standards I think that it's only fair that in recognition of that in support of that we should feel almost obligated to vote in support of the current Bond measures to a matter of fairness to make sure

0:07:03that all students in the district have a safe and secure school to attend I would also like to give a shout out to the El Cerrito Police Department's one of their major fundraisers which takes place Sunday June 9th I believe the chief is back there she'll correct me if

0:07:20I'm wrong this is a fundraiser to raise funds for the Special Olympics it's a break the bridges event you can bike anywhere from 25 to 62 to 100 miles and cross both the carquina straight bridge and the Benicia Bridge it starts in a park in Martinez and it's a great event you get a great

0:07:43feed afterwards and you'll see a lot of the members of our Police Department out there even on a Sunday working in support of this project now if you don't want a bike you can still go to bike the Bridge's website and make a contribution currently the El Cerrito Police

0:08:01Department's in third place in the fundraising they could use several hundred El Cerrito voters going to the website and shepherdin 15 20 25 bucks a piece to make them number one which they usually are thank you thank you thank you very much Tom panis good evening mayor Abelson members of

0:08:32the council and City staff my name is Tom panis and I live at [address removed] in El Cerrito I'd just like to say more about a council member manicini's comments on the ilani greenway fun day it was a great day there's a lot of people there the staff wisely put me at

0:08:47a location Far remote from the main area and still there were lots of people coming by it was great and I'd just like to thank the staff for putting it all together it was a great way to re inaugurate our Greenway thank you Dan cloak okay Gabriel Quinto good evening

0:09:20honorable mayor Abelson and city council members I would like to uh let my neighbors know and El Cerrito residents know about ab2145 and I do not support 2145 and I urge residents to not support 2145 if enacted ab2145 will limit consumer Choice reduce competition

0:09:55or California's environmental goals infringe on local government decision-making power diminished local communities abilities to create local clean energy jobs to destroy the future of Community Choice aggregation energy in California 2145 will change the rules and make it

0:10:17impossible to establish Community Choice energy programs thus cementing the utility monopolies Community Choice energy is one of the most powerful Solutions available to local governments to significantly remove reduce greenhouse gas emissions ab2145 represents a backward step for

0:10:41California's leadership please don't let utilities stamp it out I know that on June 23rd the Senate energy committee will have that on the agenda in Sacramento so I urge my neighbors and my friends here in El Cerrito to urge our senators in California to not support

0:11:092145 thanks if anyone has any questions they can look at no 2145.org thanks thank you I have no other slips at this time okay um with that we will move on to the adoption of the consent calendar I'd like to before we get too far into that note that I I think there's an error on

0:11:36Item B the title says uh that it's assembly Bill 1245 but the detail says 2145 in the documentation says 2145. yes I'm sorry um so are we okay going forward with that City attorney yeah I think you could you could note before anybody makes the motion that the title is 21.45 not 12 45. okay and I'd

0:12:05also like to pull item number D is does anyone want to pull anything else a move to adopt um item a b with the correction c and e second the motion okay motion by Bridges seconded by benassini all in favor please say I I any opposition in the abstention motion carries unanimously

0:12:26but that mean we now go to item number D and the reason I wanted to pull it is that we have a a um Proclamation and I would like to present it so this item is the proclamation recognizing June as lesbian gay bisexual transgender trans excuse me transgender pride month and if you look outside

0:12:53right now while it's still light you'll see that we are in fact flying the FL the Gay Pride flag on our flagpole out towards San Pablo as we did last year so is there a motion on this item a move to adopt 5D second okay motion by Bridges seconded by Friedman all in favor please say aye aye

0:13:19any opposition or abstention motion carries unanimously and with that I would like to present it to the chair of our human relations commission Gabriel Quinto who's just up foreign [Applause] thank you okay with that we move on to the main part of our agenda and we have a a major

0:14:19public hearing item on a project at 1715 Elm Street and um I'm going to read a script just to make sure that we have everything correct um the this is a public hearing regarding the the proposed project for 1715 Elm Street there are technically two actions being

0:14:47considered by the council tonight the first one is the consideration of the overarching entitlements for the project which are the general plan Amendment plan development district and development agreement and the second one is an appeal of the planned developments

0:15:03use permits we have in front of us this evening a lot of technical information regarding the findings required to act on these issues however to avoid having duplicate redundant technical hearings staff and Council has determined that the best way to hear about the project

0:15:22and all of the challenges and benefits was to hold one Consolidated hearing for both actions to that end we will hear a concise staff presentation a 20-minute presentation from the applicants and then we will hear a 20-minute presentations from the appellants after that all of the

0:15:43presentation after all the presentations we will um be able to hear from every member of the public that wishes to speak regarding this project do the high number of people wishing to speak each person will have three minutes and we do have a lighting system up here if we could

0:16:05demonstrate that right now um green means you have three minutes or you're still in the three minutes yellow means you have 30 seconds to go one minute to go and red means you're three minutes has um transpired if you're three minutes transpires would you please wrap up the

0:16:27sentence that you are currently in uh in consideration of others present um likewise if you uh if the person who's already spoken ahead of you or previously even says everything that you wanted to say if you want to just say I agree with that person that's perfectly

0:16:48okay and your opinion is just as valuable as anybody else's opinion uh you're having said that um and um then at the end of the hearing we will allow a five minute rebuttal from both the appellant and the applicant if necessary we will then close the public hearing and deliberate we may

0:17:15have questions for staff and of each other lastly we will take action on the items before us please remember when people are speaking that everyone in the room is a member of our community whether you agree with them or not please refrain from calling out or clapping we want everyone in the room to

0:17:35feel welcome to express their opinions thank you very much in advance for following those rules uh and so next I'm going to ask uh if there are any disclosures that council members need to make regarding this item yes I'd like to make a couple of disclosures first and foremost I'm a

0:17:59parent at Keystone Montessori School which is adjacent to the the subject of our hearing tonight in consultation with City attorney I have no financial interest in this project and and able to participate in the decision making making given that I also wanted to make

0:18:15note that I've had discussions with two people prior to the meeting one on May 29th I had a discussion with a friend of mine named Jake wedgeman who's a PhD candidate at Berkeley and planning and we were mostly discussing Tod parking rate ratios and various reports that

0:18:29have been provided to us um and I also had a discussion with Bill Jones today six two uh the former former mayor of El Cerrito who also is a contractor and I wanted to speak with him about typical practices or he wanted to provide some input on typical practices with regard to construction

0:18:44projects that's it okay okay yeah I want to let the speakers know that uh myself I've listened to the public testimony that was provided on April 16th and May 21st so um we are we've I can speak for myself I've invested a lot of time in this item so I just want to make sure that you're

0:19:08aware that you're you will hopefully be bringing new items tonight that you can do that introduce new topics and new thoughts I want to Echo that that I also listen to those proceedings at the Planning Commission okay thank you um and um I haven't had any real substantive

0:19:28conversations with anyone but I did have a brief conversation with Dave Weinstein and I had a brief conversation with Steve price this was the ones I remember um next we will go then to the staff presentation good evening Madam mayor members of the El Cerrito city council my name is

0:19:52Margaret Kavanaugh Lynch I'm your development services manager if the clerk could turn on the overhead this evening you'll be hearing a detailed presentation of the project by the project proponents and a detailed appeal from the Project's appellants I wanted to start the meeting with an overview of

0:20:21the policy information before you and a little bit about the Planning Commission action that occurred both April and in May so before you this evening is the consideration of an initial study mitigated negative declaration for the project the consideration of a general plan

0:20:40Amendment consideration of a planned development Zoning for the project property and to amend the zoning map accordingly or otherwise known as the district itself a development agreement and the appeal of the planning commission's approval of the plan development use

0:20:54permit starting off with the initial study just to recap in January the city circulated the initial study mitigated negative declaration on March 19th the Planning Commission held a study session and after The Liberation asked the staff to bring it back for formal review the initial study

0:21:13was discussed at that time and on April 16 2014 the Planning Commission held a public hearing and approved the officials that initial study mitigated negative declaration along with their entitlement that they had before them that evening highlights from the secret document are

0:21:32included in the mitigation monitoring plan and in the initial study itself air quality uh there was a lot of discussion from the Bay Area Air Quality Management District that was in your appeals and um in the initial study itself that talked about having to have

0:21:49different techniques that are used actually region-wide to address soil becoming Airborne during construction whether it's washing down the roads to make sure we don't track it into our storm sewer heading down the site to keep dust from rising there's a number

0:22:04of mitigations that were identified um in terms of biological resources Birds bats in the creek in this case there are raptors there are nesting Birds there are bats that are all affected by construction on this site or could potentially be impacted so those mitigations were identified in your

0:22:25initial study and then addressing your mitigation monitoring report cultural resources uh as is known there's a historic resource on the site that's the historic dwelling there was also standard mitigations for if paleontologic paleontologic sorry items were discovered during construction or site

0:22:48work if archaeological items are found during site work those items are touched on in your initial study as well finally one of the items that comes up through the appeal in in general is the traffic the traffic analysis is included in the initial study there's also a two traffic studies

0:23:07that are attached to that document and the conclusion is that um both in the existing traffic flow and looking ahead at the intersections with the cumulative traffic conditions say for example when Summit K2 is also operating that none of the intersections would

0:23:26fall below level of service d arefore this is right from standard SQL language although the project could have proposed a significant effect on the environment there will be a significant effect in this case because of the revisions in the project that have been made or

0:23:45agreed to by the project proponent therefore we could prepare a mitigated negative declaration you'll notice that the mitigation monitoring program shows up in two different places as an attachment to the initial study but it's also an attachment to attachment four if you

0:23:58will the city of El Cerrito staff includes mitigation monitoring requirements as conditions of approval as another way to make sure they're brought forward from the environmental document to the construction project General plan amendments the creation of a general plan district and the approval

0:24:16of a general plan agreement a development agreement have three findings in common in your staff reports there was a lot of redundancy because we have to State those findings for each of those entitlements but for the sake of the presentation I tried to summarize

0:24:29those public interest or benefit it's the recommendation from the planning commission's action in April to approve the plan development use permits and staff's recommendation that this project represents a balance of many of el Cerrito's core values first and foremost it is a project located

0:24:54within a quarter mile of the BART station with less Vehicles assigned to it therefore helping to reduce our vehicle miles traveled it also helps to renovate and restore an existing historic home and finally it retains or protects an existing Creek on site the second major finding is that the

0:25:13potential impacts of the proposed amendment have been assessed and have been determined not to be detrimental to the health safety and Welfare as stated energy staff reports the proposed project would be a Transit oriented development with good Urban Design it'll add 14 units to the

0:25:28neighborhood while preserving an historic structure and retaining the existing Creek it will not unduly shade surrounding dwellings or create unacceptable traffic and parking impacts as conditioned and it will not be detrimental as the abutting properties our neighborhood

0:25:41that was the findings made again in the April Planning Commission session and and staff's recommendation and I'll touch on the May discussion in just a second finally um as we've just discussed there is an initial study mitigated negative declaration prepared for the project but

0:25:56that is a finding that all of those entitlements uh need to make in order to be considered for approval just to step back a little bit this project is consistent with over 14 different goals and policies of the El Cerrito General plan and I know that they're all stipulated in your staff

0:26:17reports I won't read them to you but um there that's quite a high number for our project and it does speak to the balance that the project is trying to to hold the general plan designation for this property is taken right from our policy document high density residential land

0:26:36use category is intended to provide opportunities for multiple family residential development in a well-designed environment the range is intended to be located in areas where higher traffic volumes and buildings can be accommodated these developments should be located outside a

0:26:49single-family residential communities for services and transportation systems are adequate to serve the increased densities this is the designation of this project site this is guidance from the general plan not only regarding this site but also speaking to why residential medium

0:27:07and residential low are the areas that would be protected by putting the projects with density near Transit so it's kind of a guidance for the other designations but it specifically is referring to the subject property one of the reasons that this we can make finding saying it's consistent with the

0:27:30general plan for example is the project is requiring a planned development district and stepping back from all of the entitlements that we've just discussed the purpose of a general of a plan development District is really to reward a kind of a creative approach

0:27:49to looking at specific types of projects these type of projects have to bring forward an overarching public benefit so if a developer were to bring forward a project and say they prefer not to meet setbacks and height requirements and density requirements but did not have an

0:28:07overarching public benefit that would be a number of variances or outright prohibited by our own ordinances so the fact that this project is coming before you as a plan development District means that the staff saw the balance being offered we saw a Creative Design

0:28:22we saw a lot of benefits to the city overall or we wouldn't have proceeded down the road of considering this as a planned development District really quickly if this was looked at only under the constraints of the RM or multi-family residential in the creek overlay districts much of the open space

0:28:41would have been lost to surface parking spaces the number of units would have been decreased through the reduced building footprint and the building would either be a high two-story building with a mansard roof or three stories high with a flat roof all of that was considered inferior

0:28:55design to what the plan development could could bring forward in addition to those overall findings that I listed plant development District does have two additional findings one additional findings for zoning map amendments we have to say that the site is physically suitable

0:29:15compatible with joining land uses and Provisions of utilities these types of findings are also very common when you talk about development plan developments that are many acres in this case with only uh it using this the subject lot size of 0.42 Acres this seems to be a lot of additional

0:29:35findings but bear in mind that these are written for um campuses behind developments try to capture a larger basically a a type of entitlement project that isn't uh contemplated under typical zoning instances in this case clearly the site is 0.42 acres in size it's adding 14

0:29:58dwelling units for all the reasons that we listed before it will be served by the existing utilities and that was addressed a little bit in the initial study we'll be creating any unacceptable traffic or parking impacts and therefore would not impact adversely impact the

0:30:12livability of the neighborhood the final finding is that uh the proposed amendment is internally consistent with other provisions of the code so looking quickly at our base District which once again we are not confined to when we're looking at a plan development

0:30:29but the purposes of the multi-family District do pertain so again to provide opportunities for multi-family residential development and well-designed environment at a density of 21 to 35 dwelling units per acre the RM district is intended to be located in areas where higher traffic

0:30:45volumes and buildings can be accommodated these developments should be located outside again of the single-family communities where Services of transportation systems are adequate to serve the increased densities again this is this zoning underlying zoning of the project property

0:31:07it's on the finding of detriment that the Planning Commission seem to have a change of heart at their May 21st meeting and as you know on April 16th the majority of the members present approved the plan development use permits that were the finer grain the the quasi-judicial parts of the uh

0:31:27development on May 21st the majority of the members present voted to not recommend the overarching legislative components why um I was present at all these meetings personally and this is my my takeaway I know there are commission members in the audience tonight

0:31:47um first of all just looking at folks that were in attendance there was a slight change in um in terms of members who are in attendance each meeting there was a member president in May that wasn't there in April there and vice versa there was a person there in April that

0:32:04wasn't in May and then the the chair actually had a change of heart I think presented um when she listened to the information that was presented that night so I think that speaks to the commission's really studying this project uh they um they spent hours looking at each

0:32:23finding and and thinking very hard and then taking independent judgment um action based on that so my conclusion I guess that I'd like to bring forward this evening is the Planning Commission was very thoughtful and that reasonable people can disagree on the overarching findings for the

0:32:40project however they did approve the entitlement for the plan development use permit and it was a recommendation for the rest of the legislative actions so in this case staff wrote on the actual approval of the entitlement but I wanted to reflect they did a lot of hard work in both

0:32:57April and May to bring this project to you tonight that concludes the staff report I'm here for any questions and as I said I think the the better presentation of the project and the appeal are done by their their own authors this concludes the staff report okay thank you

0:33:17um the next uh part of this process will be to hear Council questions for staff learning on this side um I have a lot of questions that it might overlap with staff and the applicant I wonder if it's better to wait until they give their presentation that's fine the council can can hold

0:33:42questions until after hearing all the information okay so then it they would be handled when I would I would suggest after the presentations but before closing the public hearing so that the answers to the questions are made part of the record okay there's already a place there to do

0:33:58that so that won't okay are there any questions at this point of the other council members I've got a quick question for just for uh organizational perspectives the conditions of approval that are discussed that we'll be discussing about the project they're they're in the

0:34:15resolution that was passed April 16th and it's attack one of the several attachment tens so that as we are looking at conditions of approval that would be where we would be looking correct or you could look at attachment four um when the r r version of that yes yes

0:34:35thank you okay thank you with that we're ready to open the public hearing and um the first part of that process is the applicant presentation in Mr Carl Campos Mr Jerry Bush of LCA Architects will be presenting is that correct if that's correct thank you please proceed ready can you dim the

0:35:01lights a little bit please and I believe you have thinking was it 20 minutes yes I'll try to keep it less okay um mayor Abelson members of the council Carl Campos loving Campos architects um we've got a presentation loading up here I want to address some of the Salient

0:35:24points of the project how we got here uh in 2003 Mr Biggs Eddie Biggs bought the property so he's owned it for 11 years there have been four or five different applications different designs done on the project and uh we were am I ready to go here this is not working

0:35:55okay here we go Mr Biggs purchased it in 2003 we were appointed The Architects in 2012 so about nine years of trying different different designs and stuff on the property he came to us and asked us to help him design a high quality multi-family condominium project

0:36:12so with that in heart we looked at the previous designs on the project and uh realized there were significant constraints on the site there was the historic rodoni home in the middle here the historic home by the way the peak of the house is 23 feet high it's pretty tall it's like a

0:36:30two-story structure there was the historic the creek that was there Mr radoni Ambrose adoni worked in a quarry and he lined the creek with stones it's a beautiful job if you look at it it's well done this Creek is in a pipe all the way up into the hills and it's in a pipe from here all the way to

0:36:50the Bay so when we looked at it we we thought it was a drainage ditch basically that's how we looked at it as planners and Architects we saw the historic home on it and really didn't take it to heart based on all the previous other applications that had come before the uh the staff

0:37:05we looked at it and said well we've got a historic home we have a lot of experience with historic properties I've uh we're I'm the architect of record with Julia Morgan on the uh historic YWCA in Oakland there's only two remaining in the world and so we've we've we're familiar with shippo the

0:37:22state historic preservation office the way to preserve to preserve historic structures we did Dr Leach's home in downtown Walnut Creek relocated and move it back off the street gave it a little kind of a private Garden front I turned it into offices we know how to do it this is the

0:37:38home 1897 built and constructed here uh was occupied by the rodoni family members of them until 2003.

0:37:50so they have a long Heritage long history here 's the creek in a pipe back to the hills and a pipe to the Bay but what we realized and learned after we submitted our first application we kept the house we moved the house to the other side of the creek we put the

0:38:09creek in a pipe like all the previous Applications had done and we submitted it to the city with our architecture and our design we took the entire site we needed it for the 21 parking stalls that were required by ordinance and uh pretty much designed a project

0:38:27that utilized the entire site that kept the home put the creek in a pipe and we paid tribute to the creek by kind of a a little stream that would be on the property submitted it to the city it sat here for a couple months I got a phone call and we were told that it was a

0:38:46creek an historic home was a resource that the city was a valuable resource to the city and the creek even though it was only open for 115 feet remaining through the entire length of this arm of Baxter Creek that it was a creek and the city the city uh wanted to uh to keep that as a resource

0:39:07it was a valuable resource to the city and so as planners we said well time out we had to reassess it we went and read the historic documents on the radoni home we read about Baxter Creek we hired a wildlife biologist who's here in the audience tonight Creek Specialists that can answer any of

0:39:26your questions regarding setbacks in the creek we looked at it we said we made a mistake we've got to do the right thing here we've got to design a project that's sensitive to the site so this is the design we came back with 15 parking stalls not 21 one per unit

0:39:43it's a Transit oriented design we're a five minute walk to Bart we came back with this project we provided a ground floor unit on the site very valuable to have ground floor units and housing they're accessible they're great they are the first to sell we had the creek we kept the creek in

0:40:02its current condition we provided a habitat reconstruction of that we moved the house to the rear of the property and created a private open space in front of the house like a mini park for the use of the residents here we met with design review they liked the architecture they liked

0:40:21our plan they recommended that we move the entrance from this park-like area over here over to here so that they would be pedestrian traffic and this would be a true usable passive open space rather than just a pedestrian corridor so we presented this plan and uh

0:40:40it it preserved the house preserved the creek and we used half the footprint that we had before we compacted everything and uh why we think that this is the best design for this property we have a home a residential kid character three-story building parking concealed on the ground floor

0:41:03we have a we set back a unit here we stepped the building back on Elm Street that's a balcony a large Terrace above one of the ground the ground floor unit has an entrance off of Elm Street that's a that's a goal of the plan is to provide entrances on on major streets we

0:41:20have the home over here with a park in front of it why did we why do we select this plan well the minimum landscaped area required in this district is 15 percent of the site I'm going to show you some examples of buildings that are built in this area right in this neighborhood that have

0:41:36that and less we provide 50 percent over 50 percent of our site is in landscaping with a park and everything so we successfully compacted the size of the building footprint private open space required is 900 square feet total we provide 1548 square feet common open

0:41:53space required as 1600 square feet and the slides too big we're about 2 800 2900 square feet of common looking space over here that's the home we've made a serious commitment to saving and restoring the exterior facade of the home and converting it to a living dwelling

0:42:14unit this is the architecture I want to talk a little about it about the architecture the city doesn't want us to slavishly copy architectural features on the house just kind of pay a tribute to it and so our design on Elm Street and the for the building takes the the Gable ends on the

0:42:31project the high pitched roofs and we we take them and introduce them into the the style of the building we use the horizontal siding some shingle infield panels divided light Windows kind of like the home and we feel it's a good architectural complement it's a

0:42:46residential style building not what you would see on San Pablo which is a harder Edge more urban type design and there we go that's the project it's there's the home the little Gable Inn we try to mimic that the siding it's a very rich warm architectural feature came up

0:43:06over and over again in the public hearing process we learned a lot we learned a lot that the creek even though it's only 115 feet long is valuable to the community the Elm Street neighborhood and that the the issue came up does it fit the site is this building oversized

0:43:24how does design fit into the neighborhood context with respect to height and architecture this neighborhood all around Elm Street Liberty is a is a neighborhood in transition over the years been zoned for multi-family for over 30 years high density and you have a hodgepodge a real great

0:43:44neighborhood of one-story single-family homes two-story homes duplexes triplexes three and four-story apartment buildings all kind of mixed throughout the neighborhood and so I took just a study this is our site here this is Bart we're just five minute walk to Bart

0:44:03Lexington Avenue we looked at Liberty Street a couple of projects on Liberty this is just a couple hundred feet away from us on Liberty Street behind 13 units this is 1708 Lexington right behind us 13 units 0.29 Acres 43.6 dwelling units to the acre 39 feet height four feet over the height limit

0:44:25about eight eight dwelling units to acre over the density here is Liberty Street 1740 1750 16 units on about a half an acre 30 dwelling units to the acre 35 foot height most of it's concrete asphalt parking building's not very highly articulated so we're building

0:44:46but it's in the neighborhood here is uh 1751 Liberty this is a two and three story apartment building over one level of parking there's three stories it's two stories on the other side but it's in a neighborhood where we are and there's single family homes right next to it

0:45:05and across the street some duplexes and triplexes so it's a it's a real eclectic neighborhood that has a a lot of different forms and designs and it's classic for an older City this is a 35-foot height limit Design This is Elm Street on Elm Street which is right on the street we are uh 39 feet

0:45:265 inches to the top of a highest point of our mansard roof there's the 35 foot limit so we're not out of character with the neighborhood and all the homes and designs that are based that are multi-family projects that are in the neighborhood we're well within the range the density range and

0:45:44specifically the height range when we went to design review we looked at uh they were talking about reducing the height here is the stair Tower before they recommended that we reduce this Gable end and there it is after reduce down before and after so we went through the

0:46:03public hearing process they liked the design of the project we like the mansard roof because it pays tribute to the historic home it also acts as it has a roof well we can we can we can Shield um solar panels satellite TV dishes we can put them up on the roof and not be seen

0:46:24um we did a design if you look up here on top this is kind of a Victorian kind of concept classic period design it's a flat roof building it's well under the height limit it's 35 feet tall to the these built out bay window elements and about 33 32 feet tall here we can do a flat roof building

0:46:48but on the roof when we put solar panels up there they'll be visible as will the satellite dishes and stuff so we like the mansard roof concept that we've shown here it's only a difference of four feet three actually a little over three and a half feet on Elm Street for the height there it is in

0:47:07the architecture so we like this we prefer that we can do a flat roof if we had to we'd be well within well below the height limit and that's what that would look like a flat roof building in perspective we did a sketch same concept same design it's only about four feet that's lower than the other

0:47:25building and under the height limit we talked to the Montessori school they were concerned about views into the children's play yard and here's some sight line studies we did we developed an eight foot high designed for a wall with some tree screening so that residents from our third floor could not

0:47:43peer into the backyard we did a lot of sight line studies I can show you more if you like so we believe that the history of the process shows the project has addressed significant constraints while providing high quality housing and important Transit District the

0:47:57constraints were no longer constraints when we took this final design they became that you had a significant resources of a creek and an historic home and we designed the project around those resources so this is the before and after moving the house back we've committed to saving the creek

0:48:16and it preserves a significant historic and natural resources combined with high quality Transit oriented design we've we've reduced our building footprint significantly and we only have 15 parking stalls and we know it'll work we're doing other Transit oriented

0:48:32design projects one car is enough per unit just in in closing Mr Biggs wishes to continue to be a good neighbor and address concerns expressed at public meetings so we looked hard since the last Planning Commission at options if we don't convert the historic home

0:48:52into a residence we're at 14 units and we're below we don't need a general plan Amendment for density so Mr Biggs would offer up that he's willing to explore the possibility of restoring the historic rodoni home exterior at his own cost relocating it on the property all New Foundations all

0:49:09new mechanical all new Plumbing all new electrical an interior and donating it to a public beneficiary that would maintain the building and enhance the Elm Street neighborhood we're also considering and would be willing to to offer up the private open space in the front of this project

0:49:27one of the goals and policies of the general plan is high density neighborhoods is to take public open space the private open space and make it available to the public because it's like a pocket park so in front of this historic home we moved it to the back we're offering up

0:49:43that we would make that land in front we would maintain it keep it up make it available excuse me please make it available uh to the public uh during daylight hours as a public park and we could do demonstration Gardens there that was brought up um in the public hearing process make it

0:50:04available for demonstration Gardens teaching or just a private public pocket park in front and uh we would we would build it maintain it along with the house bill it maintain it donate it to a to a non-profit for use so that's uh that's our offer Michael Woods our biologist is here

0:50:23he's right behind the audience if you have I know there's there was a lot of issues came up regarding jarpa fishing Wildlife Corps of Engineers and the creek he's here he's an expert he can testify uh on the creek we already have for instance our fish and wildlife permit

0:50:38we've received that we have two other agencies to get through and that's the end that's the extent of my presentation if you have any questions I'd be delighted to answer them there any questions from the council yeah can I start or um I had a question about the mansard

0:50:56roof and the height [Music] um I understand the reasons why we went to the mansard roof but are there in your background of historic structures yes are there Department of interior standards that sort of made you lean in this direction or for the new building the there's no Department of interior

0:51:16standards the department of interior standards for shippo state historic preservation office uh they would they would they would apply to the home we would not be modifying for instance uh significantly the exterior historic fabric of the home we would keep that

0:51:32intact we would there's there's a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of dry Watt and termite damage there has been it's been in neglect for many many years and uh we're going to fix all that up and uh the the home would have to we we said that we would restore it to those

0:51:47standards which we know how to do the new construction we're just kind of taking some of the elements of the home and keeping it very residential in character if you notice on San Pablo you've got a more urban high density core look with the stucco the metal panels

0:52:05the metal trellises this is a residential design it's meant to fit into the historic the context of the historic home and and the community there so it's not that hard Urban Edge and we've got 50 of our site and Landscaping which you won't find on a high density project

0:52:23and then admissible units yes that means they're um wheelchair accessible there's no stoop is that correct absolutely our first design we had one and we're working on lots of transformation design we do as you can imagine the the accessibility laws in California are are

0:52:45great and uh those units are very valuable and we what took us over the 35 to the acre we were at 33 and we added another ground floor unit those are very valuable and they're fully accessible the units upstairs are accessible they have to be designed to be accessible and

0:53:03converted across so there but they we don't have an elevator but uh not everyone's in a wheelchair I mean handicapped is eyes hands I mean feet I mean there's a lot of different disabilities and regarding the creek will you leave the as you said I actually walked the whole length

0:53:23um leave the stonework that the place that's there because no that's obviously been there a long time you know uh walking the yeah walking up there if you read the historic there's an historic document it was written Ambrose rodini rodoni was uh and his brothers they

0:53:38worked in a quarry and uh they were stone masons they were excellent and when they rebuilt the creek it's it's been there rebuilt like that for you know over a hundred years and it hasn't gone anywhere and the pipe brings a significant amount of water down it flows right through the 115 open and

0:53:55goes back in a pipe all the way to the bay and it's been there for years and stayed there so that's a that's a real nice aesthetic feature we we plan to enhance we're going to clean it up make it all visible and we can't do any work in the creek except I mean Michael Woods can address

0:54:11that for you and um you know the the donation of of the historic home to a public beneficiary could mean the city of El Cerrito it could mean if other things too it could mean my understanding is there a number of non-profits in the city and they could use it for meetings they

0:54:32could use it as their offices it could be used as a museum various various uses Mr Biggs willing to do that and so this this would be an exterior um rehab if you will and it would not be prepared as a dwelling no not if we did that okay it would be it would be the exterior would be

0:54:56completely rehabilitated the the house would have to be put on New Foundations it's spool and wire electrical systems not allowed by code anymore you know the old the knob and wire it was all exposed electrical wires so we're going to put in all new electrical systems new power

0:55:13panels telecommunications cable we're going to put in uh all new lighting all new mechanical systems there is no existing heating system in the house anymore put all that in put all new Plumbing the plumbing doesn't work in the house so we would it's basically we're going to rehabilitate the entire

0:55:32structure and if we donate it to public entity if you read the historic reports not uncommon that there's no historic fabric inside the house it's been changed and remodeled many many times so we're going to clean it up and fix the kitchen fix the plumbing fix the floors

0:55:51paint it remove any hazardous material that might be in there if there's lead paint I haven't done that study yet remove all of that and at considerable expense and we were should we should we keep it as a residence we were going to add some bedrooms downstairs and a bath the existing or

0:56:11the rodoni family had a member of their family if you read the historic report I've read it they uh they got divorced and they moved downstairs and they built two bedrooms and a bathroom form it's now completely deteriorated but it's an opportunity to have more than a one or

0:56:28two bedroom uh uh unit on is a home and we could get three four bedrooms so it uh it'll you know we could restore that to a home and sell it and there are people that love to buy historic residences and there's a market for it especially here and um when you referred to the open

0:56:48space that would be available in front of the historic home that's correct um would that have conditions placed on it for time of day use or anything like that yeah we have to work out the details we would want it uh if even when you're on like San Pablo Avenue those those areas should be

0:57:07closed at night otherwise you get people camping out and staying there and we've got the situation in in other cities we work in so yeah there would be an hour like at dusk it would be locked up and we would put a fence between that that that the uh the park and us it's just an

0:57:23open wrought iron gate decorative gate it's accessible from our site by a little Bridge but it would be a gated entry on the street that would be controlled and closed in the evening hours and you also said that you were going to be constructing an eight-foot wall

0:57:40between the property and um Keystone yes um that was it their desire how tall is the fence that's there now is it six six foot that's this is eight feet it's about this high so we we took the top two feet made it latticework six foot of wood uh they were concerned

0:57:59about residents uh I I can't blame them but they've got a play yard with small children and they don't they they need their privacy and so we we met with them and determined that we could build an eight foot high fence and put in some canopy trees that would screen view of

0:58:15any possibility of looking into the yard um and then should I address Mr wood regarding the creek anything on the creek Dr Mike Wood okay um do you want to bring him up now or should we wait till uh yeah it's okay he's here um so from what I understand from the staff

0:58:35report I trade you're a biologist is that right good evening good evening so um you've evaluated the creek I guess my main question about the creek and we are very familiar with the setbacks from our Creek overlay District but what do you see um uh as potential I I don't know how to

0:59:01explain it whether this can is considered a riparian creek or um is there any life there I mean I walked in it I didn't see because the brickwork or the stonework I didn't really see a lot of plantings that I would consider Creek plantings that you see in our other creeks and I didn't see

0:59:22any creatures um and I didn't I don't know if that includes insects which I didn't investigate too closely but um could you make some comments about that because I guess the issue is because it's been it's closed on both ends I wondered if you might sort of explain what your opinions are creep

0:59:41sure well in support of the application for the permits for construction of the abutments at the or the the new head wall at the downstream end we did do a by a biological assessment report and in that report we basically evaluate create a narrative that describes the

1:00:02site its context what habitats are present and evaluates the potential for occurrence in that site or in the vicinity for any special status plant or animal species that's what goes goes in the biological assessment report essentially there's there's uh the the

1:00:21channel uh would be characterized as an unvegetated Waters of the U.S so it's there's no emergent vegetation there's no riparian vegetation uh that is overhanging the channel and creating uh habitat values for uh Wildlife species so that's what I would call it as a

1:00:42biologist as a wetland delineator an unvegetated Waters of the state at Waters of the U.S and Waters of the state so that still doesn't preclude the potential for wildlife to inhabit a water body of course you can have aquatic organisms or fish species moving up and down through through an

1:01:01unvegetated Waters as well in our determination and our conclusion in the biological assessment report is that it's extremely unlikely given the length of buried Channel between this little open segment and Upstream habitat where where the channel where the the

1:01:21Watershed is open uh or or the bay so there's no real concern about things like steelhead or coho salmon moving that far up there's no concern regarding things like red-legged frog yellow legged frog a Pacific Pond turtle moving down into that area at the same time also in the channel

1:01:43itself there are no features we call riffles and pools there's no overhanging vegetation root wads Hollows Burrows places where Wildlife could take refuge so all of those things kind of conspire to make this a relatively sterile system I didn't use that word in the report but

1:02:03that's that's kind of the conclusion and so it seems it seems um credentials I guess you might say about evaluating the creek we have the creek overlay district and I wasn't on Council when that was passed but it's it's 30 feet on either side I actually thought and I had to look this

1:02:27up with the city attorney that it was 15 from the middle and 15 on the other side for a total of 30 but that's really not the case it's 30 30 which would be 60.

1:02:37on the small property like this that would actually take away a lot of the potential I guess you might say for any kind of development if we were to to um follow that um I also don't know and and I don't know if the staff could make comments about this and maybe not you of course

1:02:57but um what the what the thinking was to have it 60 feet 30 and 30 on either side I could understand that for um a place maybe like Baxter Creek or there's probably you know in Cerrito Creek over by the plaza but for this I'm not so sure and so I guess what I wanted

1:03:17to ask is do you think that um is it common to have a kind of a setback like that for a 115 foot I forgot the terminology used the length of the channel yeah we'll call it a channel yeah um is that is that common in your experience or I don't I don't know how what to make of that I guess all right

1:03:42well um as a biologist I have a problem or have I'm challenged by kind of arbitrary Dimensions because they don't take a site's context into consideration and the California Department of Fish and Wildlife has a wide range of setbacks that they will request in the processing

1:04:03of a lake and stream at alteration program permit so context is everything what are the habitats what are the what are the values of those habitat what's the perceived value of a wider riparian buffer versus a narrow riparian buffer right that's what the Department of Fish

1:04:22and Wildlife takes into consideration okay so a a setback in a context like this I do a lot of setback analysis for example for the town of Los Gatos I do all of their setback Administration a 10-foot setback is very frequently um cited as a requirement or a recommendation by the California

1:04:48Department of Fish and Wildlife In in contexts like this we have an engineered straightened storm drain system without vegetation without great wildlife habitat values without an existing riparian overstory so a narrower that they will accept a narrower setback and in fact in this

1:05:13case they have they've accepted the setback as the project has been described Baxter Creek certain sections of Baxter Creek other types of channels where you have more natural slopes natural functions that are capturing sediment contaminants providing Upland buffer

1:05:31habitat providing overstory habitat for wildlife there you're going to see a wider setback being warranted and in fact fish and wildlife will ask for a hundred foot setback but you you make exactly the right point on a narrow small property like this strict adherence to a and

1:05:55pardon me if I use the word arbitrary but a a designated width that doesn't take into consideration a site would take up a big chunk of the property wouldn't it yeah well we're a city that likes our historic structures and our Creeks both so absolutely I do a lot of work in the

1:06:13city upon Creek restoration projects we just daylighted uh 600 feet of box Channel Culvert on Wildcat Creek in Davis Park and it's a very very nice project a restoration sign group did the design I did the biology and the permitting and the monitoring on that so

1:06:34yes I'm very familiar with and and that's of course why the the placement of this channel into a buried pipe was a non-starter in in this current our current uh regulatory environment is exactly for that reason we want to keep channels open and we want to look for

1:06:51opportunities to open or to Daylight channels and once you put something in a pipe it's going to be really hard to reclaim it later oh that was part of the part of the change of course on this project I never saw it again I was just like well I guess well it was there was a lot

1:07:10of Ivy and Wisteria on the ground and and uh um yeah it looked it looked uh weedy right thank you okay thank you come back please thank you just a couple more questions for me and then I'll pass on to other council members who might want to question the biologist and we can maybe

1:07:31come back to the other speaker um on the creek we've talked a lot about the current or the reports talk a lot about the current state of the creek and then we talk about the enhancement plan that's proposed under the project in another world where we did try to

1:07:46conform to this 30-foot setback what what could that Creek be given its constraints in terms of the pipes at the front end and the back end I I want to really understand the enhancement program which is described very very aptly um but I want to understand what we're

1:08:02giving up by if this project goes forward what we're giving up by not you know living in a world where we adhere to the 30-foot setback and there's lots of money to be placed into enhancing the creek I want to know what sort of biological value you're getting from we might be giving up well first of

1:08:18all let me let me offer one minor clarification and that is that the the setback that exists on the plan it's it's referred to in the fish and wildlife doc permit as a variable setback and that's what it is so we don't have a a strict line it actually is wider and narrower at certain parts

1:08:39it's very wide where the park is in the front it's also very wide in the back because that's where we have the the water quality detention basins and those are going to be seated with Native locally indigenous grasses and Wildflower species as well as planted with Native species so essentially the

1:08:58whole back of the lot is as a wide habitat buffer so there's that Flex that variation in uh in the width of the setback there's one part of the site I think it's where the where the historic home would rest where there's a an encroachment but the rest of it is open fairly wide as for as for uh

1:09:26answering a question um I I guess that that would be a lot of conjecture on my part uh if you know if you took down a bunch of houses Downstream and a bunch of houses without doing that well my question is what would be the value gained that's that's yeah that's

1:09:46what I want to know yeah and and um and truth be told the uh we're we're we're not creating a natural riparian system here it doesn't exist uh and the only way we could create something that would be meaningful would be to have more habitat islands that connect to the Upstream Watershed as it

1:10:12is this is an island it's a it'll be a a little a little island of habitat and and by habitat you know what we're talking about here is native species providing structural diversity in the canopy so low plants shrubs and a tree canopy ultimately and um in such a confined spot

1:10:37I I again I'm not sure how much how much real benefit there would be even if you landscaped the entire thing yeah I do want to ask you did if those islands were opened up at some future date let's say sometime in the future some plan is created that would open up sections

1:10:57Upstream if this project went forward as proposed are we creating a diminished environment in a future scenario where there are islands opened up Upstream well we're I know I know we're projecting a lot of ifs and and a lot I just want to know all the opportunity

1:11:15costs that we're evaluating tonight well I I guess I would have to start with the Watershed analysis and I didn't do a watershed analysis for this project uh obviously there's a tremendous amount of of undeveloped open space up in the hills above with tremendous habitat

1:11:32values and and we know there's uh special status species distributed out all through the the hills into the Berkeley Hills over the other side to the San Pablo Reservoir Watershed uh it's a it's a large extensive area and uh um we are in the middle of a pretty broad

1:11:54expanse of developed paved surfaces and the some of the goals the goal of the some of the restoration projects where they're daylighting sections of like Wildcat Creek codernissa's Creek down closer to to the uh to the Bay they're hoping to create shaded canopy

1:12:22over kind of naturalized meanders with riffles and pools and root wads but then of course farther Downstream they have to remove drop structures that pose barriers to the Upstream migration of steelhead until those are removed we won't have an andromous fish coming up

1:12:40but they're kind of doing it one step at a time so your question is I mean it's it's it's right on but we're pretty high in the Watershed there's a lot of it's it's all urbanized barriers that are there yeah thank you for entertaining that one more question um in your analysis there was discussion

1:13:01about potential for flooding during the Planning Commission meetings and I wanted to hear a little bit more about whether or not you as part of your analysis you're aware of flood potential um the the current house has been there 100 years I don't know if it's been

1:13:14damaged by floods in the past and I don't know who can address that question it wouldn't be me I'm not a hydrologist we do have in the in the Jarvis submittal documents there's uh uh there's a little bit of documentation that was in prepared by others on a hydrologic analysis my understanding is

1:13:35that there hasn't been a flooding problem coming out of that channel I think the modifications to the to the head wall the downstream head wall where the channel empties back into the underground Culvert it could be that those modifications are also taking into consideration Peak

1:13:56flows and getting the water into the pipe but I'm I'm not aware I don't know anything about flooding of the site I'm sorry that's okay I have some more for Mr campus but if anybody else wants to question Mr wood thank you Greg Mr wood hi good evening uh for uh disclosure Mr wood and I have

1:14:15worked on a project together about six years ago but we've not had any conversation about this project until now until now um Mr wood is it potential that there could be red-legged frogs in this Creek no you're sure of that uh well that was a conclusion that's the conclusion in

1:14:32our in our uh biological assessment so no potential correct in your opinion in my opinion would it be prudent for us to check the creek prior to starting the work um sure and I think I think I I have a variety of of typical pre-construction survey uh um recommendations in the

1:14:55mitigation measures mostly for birds and bats but not amphibians correct yeah okay um what was the activity that triggered the jarpa application it's the construction of the new head wall and and it for and it's actually covered in one of the Aero photographs this

1:15:13actually is in in in the biological report though there's an open channel from Elm to Liberty and in the open channel on the Liberty side is actually covered by treated two by twelves with one inch spacing between them Downstream I didn't know that so I actually doesn't go into a pipe it goes

1:15:34under that building probably and who knows what it does but it it when it comes out from underneath that building it is a con at least from the curb it looks like a concrete Line open Channel with two treated two by twelves on top oh my goodness so um I I rephrased my question why are you

1:15:53putting a head wall in when there is no receiving pipe I'm not putting the head wall in I just did the the environmental analysis of the permit if if there was no head wall would the jarpa permit be a PR uh be triggered well um the only thing that we would need a a

1:16:13permit for would be the outfalls for the water quality basins and those could be designed in such a way that we that we wouldn't need a permit but uh the way it's designed right now there would be pipes coming from both sides going into the wing walls of the head wall and that

1:16:31would be an outfall so however if that could be designed in a way to avoid permating entirely so so the head wall also is the outlets outlets for the 2c3 basins correct okay and um how would you talked about or maintenance of the stone wall or removing the vegetation to make the

1:16:53stone maybe you didn't necessarily Carl did um how would that maintenance be done without a regional board and uh fish and wildlife department permit I'm not sure I know what you mean it's maintenance of Vegeta removal of The Unwanted vegetation in the creek bed itself

1:17:09because there are some non-natives at least from what I could see there potentially are some non-natives in the in that creek bottom hanging over the top okay yeah and that can be pulled back without any permitting okay and um what trees should be planted in a riparian corridor because I'm looking at

1:17:27the planting plant and and some of the trees that are selected don't necessarily fit with my idea of a California riparian Corridor well they there's uh there's certainly landscape species outside of what we've designated as and this is we have this drawn up on

1:17:43a uh a deed restriction uh that that designates the setback area and it's a narrow band that comes from Elm Street to the back of the lot with a few jogs and then it broadens out at the back of the lot where the detention basins are and all of the plantings that would be

1:18:03within that zone are locally native and I I could get my document out and review that that's okay one of them is a sycamore which is very much a California riparian species in in the types of transition flat zones that we're looking at what what does the Sycamore typically

1:18:20grow to be what's its how height and and lateral uh canopy well they get pretty big as you know they do so where it's located I think the buildings are about a total of about 15 feet wide would would you consider that a riparian upright pair like with only 15 feet

1:18:39between these two buildings would you consider that a good place to plant such a riparian tree and then of course they're also in that same area is uh Oregon Ash and and I'm not familiar with the Oregon ashes if that's a riparian tree absolutely yes okay because certainly those are those

1:18:59are also proposed in here um let's see head wall plantings DARPA thank you Mark uh all my questions were already asked and answered I have uh one other question I have a question that hasn't been asked um and maybe it's unrelated um but what I do remember from some

1:19:28hearings that I went to is that all of the rainwater needs to be retained on site and can you explain are you the right person to explain I wouldn't be the right person to talk about on-site retention okay do you want to do that have that okay okay why don't you come back and

1:19:52and if that relates to the creek is the related it does okay it does we uh California enacted uh Senate bill I forget the the number of it uh but it's called C3 and um now all of PR all projects even in your downtown along the urban corridor they have to retain their storm drainage

1:20:14on site have it filtered through a filter medium sand whatever before it's released into the storm brain system of the creeks and so um anytime fortunately we have 50 Landscaping on our property and the typical amount of landscaping required for C3 basins where they're normally

1:20:34just kind of um to one at one foot deep kind of swales about four to five percent of the site sometimes as much as nine percent depending on how much roof and Hardscape you put in we have 50 of our site and Landscaping so we don't have a problem with uh with retaining our our storm drain water on

1:20:56site we'll we'll develop those C3 basins those are done in the rear of the property and they eventually have to be directed to a creek we have a creek on our property so that's the head wall situation we're taking that into the into the creek there so it's a requirement it's very difficult you're

1:21:14going to have you're when you when you do your projects in San Pablo in the more urban areas a lot of a lot of developers are trying to figure out ways to do it roof Gardens terraced roofs with Lawns upstairs you'll see a lot of that happening just because you have to retain your water

1:21:31your storm water on site we put Planters at the base of I've got some projects in downtown like say Walnut Creek we're 100 units to the acre 100 use of the acre and we have Planters built up against the sides of the garage to take the rain water off the roofs and filter it in the

1:21:48Planters before it goes into the storm drain system it's fairly elaborate but we have with our design here fortunately we have a lot of a lot of open space a lot of landscaped area so working our way back to Layman's interpretation of all of this um which is what I am all of this person

1:22:08excuse me all of the water during a storm would ultimately be directed after being cleaned correct into the creek into the creek or into the street the storm brain system in the street okay depends on where where it's more where it's easier to flow to probably half the

1:22:25site would go to the to the street system maybe the other half would go into the creek and that Design's not fully done yet but it it has to be filtered and cleaned on site and the the work that you're doing in the creek will enable the creek to receive that yes okay in a 100 Year

1:22:45storm yeah you had a 100 Year storm who can predict what's going to happen but but it but in a 25-year five-year storm uh you know I don't know what the I don't know what the hydrology is for that length of Crete there we do the studies but it's been the Creek's been there for

1:23:01a hundred years it's been in a pipe for many many many years I learned something tonight about it being in a concrete case covered with some two by twelves beyond that um the jarpa permit would be nice to not have to do on the on the project but uh to answer your question the the yes we

1:23:25would direct some of the C3 basins into the creek okay thank you are there any further um I gotta want to follow up on your computer storm what do you know what size head wall what storm event the head wall was designed for I do not but I could get you that probably not a

1:23:42hundred year but probably probably not 25 to 25 100 years hard to predict for it okay any further questions on of this speaker yes um so I'm a little I've got missed messages here we're for now planning to go on with jarpa are we not absolutely well we're in Forever that's a good

1:24:01thing it's a good thing yeah I think it's a good thing uh they're they're the final agency they're tough and uh well like like Mike said we have our fish and wildlife and they they really look at setbacks we have that permit right and as I said before we love our Creek so we really want to make

1:24:16sure so they also understand that they'll look at the hydrology then a little bit too Chopra yeah okay just a couple of questions related to air quality during construction and I think you're able to great um so the initial study can has a numerous conclusions about the types of

1:24:35emissions that will take place during construction and how they relate to the Bay Area Air Quality Management District thresholds can you just explain for us how those projections generally are done and how we can be confident that the projections will be correct for a

1:24:49project that hasn't occurred yet and and that that on-site air quality monitoring is not as is not recommended or why it's not recommended state has strict standards and in the last I would say even five years the standards have become even more strict whenever we do a

1:25:06project now near a freeway anywhere near within say 100 to 300 feet of a freeway we're required to do air monitoring and uh it's it's a big deal and uh the amount of dust and pollution that's generated is monitored State of California is really tough and it's it's being looked at in various

1:25:26jurisdictions we have very we have a lot of projects going on that are near freeways because that's where the that's your access to transportation is important and um they're high density projects and the various legislative bodies of Board of Supervisors and counties and cities

1:25:43are are having to deal with it and they're they're having to to deal with the the air quality issues um what we're doing here on this site is a three-story building as very you know it's not going to generate the project as if you were doing a major uh 400 unit development

1:26:02grading and and preparing rough grading uh the and bringing in fills and and exporting bad soils it's not going to do that at all it's a very it's a small project we've got 14 units that we're building here and a very small footprint there's nothing we're doing that's

1:26:20that's unusual that isn't monitored by the state and the city the city has very strict guidelines regarding grading times dust emissions the amount of dust you have there they're all over it and a project like this would not typically require a monitoring system because

1:26:39there's so many state standards and City standards in place that if you violate them you're going to be shut down and and Margaret maybe this question is for you who's responsible for determining whether or not a violation has taken place at various points as identified in the

1:26:56mitigation monitoring program at various points it would be the planning staff however we also have a required condition of approval that has a contact available for the foreman of the site so if something was seen that was completely in violation any neighbor could pick up the phone you know they

1:27:15hope they call me but they would also be able to call the foreman themselves and say what is that what's going on thank you and during construction I'm sorry if I missed this is is watering of the site proposed as sort of a normal course of construction the minute you start uh any

1:27:31kind of uh process that would cause debris or Airborne particulates to happen then that's that's monitored by by Water Systems they keep the soil down they keep the dust down and um it's it's I tell you who's the best regulator on all the projects I've been doing this

1:27:47for many many many years and the neighbors yeah your neighbors in an urban setting in a downtown setting you don't want dust all over people's cars in all their homes it becomes an issue and so contractors are very aware of it and they really moderate these days

1:28:02because you don't want to have to pay to have people's cars repainted and will any soil be taken off site or any substantial amount of soil being taken off site no we're looking uh there might be some minor export of soil for the footings but we're hoping to when

1:28:17we're done with the engineering that we're going to balance the site so any footing spoils would be balanced around the perimeter and Landscaping areas and stuff if there are any trucks that do leave with soil is it sort of standard practice to cover those trucks with tarp

1:28:30okay because they're going to go through multiple cities and they're driving down the freeway and dust is coming off the truck you're in trouble thank you I have a follow-up question due to the sensitivity of the nearby Keystone school yes um so we have the wall the eight foot wall

1:28:48right and then um is there any thought to having um maybe less Construction in and out on that side of the property like it could be perhaps a staging area or I don't know yeah that's probably what's going to happen we're most likely we're you know we're gonna We want to be a good neighbor and

1:29:08and uh there's a lot of kids in the school and the school's there and it's there it's going to stay there and so we're we're we're going to do whatever it takes to minimize the impact to our adjacent neighbors and then and on the Elm Street Community we're going to do

1:29:22that so it could be used as a staging area across there the only issue we have is we've got to get across the creek back and forth so that's that becomes it becomes an issue but yes uh actually the actual amount of construction near the school is none we have the we have the big Park in their

1:29:40backyard our our pocket park is facing their backyard so we'll be quite a ways away across the creek and everything and there's a rumor out there that there's something called um they're doing this at the high school apparently because you know they're digging out

1:29:54um the field at Del Cerrito High School and there's something called like I don't know rumpelstra strips or something so that it kind of knocks the dirt off the tire of the trucks and it leads to less stuff spewing around in the air yeah any any good Builder smart

1:30:11Builder is going to utilize every everything he can to limit the amount of construction air quality debris and noise noise is a big deal and dirt and dust is another big deal and and they they clean up after every day it they're supposed to look like no one's been there on on Elm Street at the

1:30:31end of the day that's good um and then do they ever cover um like with geotechs or some of these final Fabrics or something put out on dirt to less wind I mean today's the windy day they do they do it's uh typically done more in an urban environment okay an urban environment where you're downtown

1:30:51San Francisco you're building a high-rise and dust is a real big issue it gets all over the buildings people's cars it's it's a it's a big deal in an urban environment thank you thank you okay of course but on the other sure um yeah there's certainly lots of dust suppressant

1:31:08technology out there as well for for reducing dust um but I was just curious on the building height discussion topic um did you guys some of the neighbors some of the neighboring buildings in the in the neighborhood did excavate out it looks like for their parking so I was

1:31:24just curious in order to reduce your overall Street appeal did you consider going down with uh no we didn't and specifically because of the creek we really didn't want to you know we were going to take our foundations on that edge of the creek will be down to the

1:31:40bottom of the creek level they'll be down to that level so that we don't put any surcharge load from the wall of the creek we'll be down with our footings all that load will be below the creek but we we specifically did not consider uh going down underground with parking

1:31:56for 14 units it's uh in today's day and dollars yeah I was just thinking two two feet three feet not something yeah not a full layer because you obviously have residential housing on that level yeah it becomes an it becomes an accessibility issue then you have extensive we're Limited in

1:32:14sight we're right about you know the creek so it becomes a ramp and accessibility issue by California law to get out of that two or three feet um how would the creek walls be maintained it's a good question that's a great question I I um the homeowners association the bylaws

1:32:33the ccnrs will be written and uh part of the the pocket park maintenance and the creek maintenance will be in that and we'll get experts like Mr wood and others to our civil engineering team to give us advice on that and it will be written into ccnrs because it has to be

1:32:53and uh is it dry stone or is it mortared do you do you know I think it's dry stacked I I think it's dry stacked just very well done and so or if it's mortared so it would be right so it would be 100 manual labor to restore or replace any portion yeah I think it would be it's been there

1:33:13for a hundred years so I don't I don't know if it's going anywhere it's been there for a long time and it looks really solid so the answer to that question is we would the proper the proper Masons would have to get in there to do that you can just let anybody fix

1:33:25it and and uh a mansard roof I had to look it up because I wasn't sure and Henry mansard French figured out a way to put another story of homes in France uh into the roof it's called a mansard roof they tucked another level of units density right Urban setting they tried

1:33:46to get more units and so mansard is famous for having tucked units in and beating the rules and laws of the French government at the time yes if the way I was the way I read it tonight was uh 20 meters the tax limit was 20 meters and you hit a different tax level when you

1:34:03went above 20 meters right and there were as many as two or even three stories built above the 20 meter uh mark inside the mansard roof by the mansard roof yep have you thought about actually putting a dwelling unit inside your mansard roof no no we haven't but the artist Garrett

1:34:22there right yeah yeah but but we have done designs uh we did the Thousand units at Pleasant Hill BART station called Park Regency and uh we we designed four-story buildings with two levels of parking one fully below one half above grade and the market was different in those

1:34:38days and we did mansard roofs at the fourth floor so the units on the fourth floor actually are have the roofs coming down in front of them so it helped reduce the size of the building okay thank you mark okay um let's see I had I'm kind of I think this is the point at

1:35:02which to ask you any questions at all that that we have right are they I have a guess I have a chance to rebut and uh I can come up in any time the I'm interested in your offer regarding uh the house sure and um one of the questions I have if if there were an agreement to go forward

1:35:28with that proposal would and let's say that um it was developed as a as a public space inside the house right um what work would have to be done once you were finished to make it habitable for uses oh we would make it habitable for uses the the the most important thing is when we're

1:35:53doing or making it into a home um the the building doesn't have to be because it's for sale uh it's like you're like your home if you bought a home doesn't have to be made accessible the minute we offer it up as a as a public uh as a donation to a non-profit or to a public entity the minute we do

1:36:14that it's subject to California accessibility Title 24 laws and so we would have to provide uh probably a lift off to the side to get up because the buildings it's probably six eight feet off the ground and so we would need a lift to get up to the first floor all

1:36:31the rooms in the in the the dwelling unit would have to be made accessible in other words they'd have to have three foot wide doors the the kitchen any any kind of eating area we had would have to be accessible by California state law this is so this is for a house or for a

1:36:48public a public space for a public space the units were providing on the ground floor the homes were providing on the ground floor they are fully going to be fully uh adaptable accessible all of them on the ground floor and above will make all the all the units are required

1:37:02by California even though there's no elevator they're required to be adaptable that means that will be removable base cabinets under the sinks that means that all the bathrooms have to meet the California Title 24 1 at least in the unit has to meet the accessibility

1:37:19standards blocking is put in the walls for grab bars and things in case anybody who's who's uh with a disability buys a unit they're able to immediately convert it without with very little cost to the buyer you're talking about the upper story other stories and the lower

1:37:34stories will be the same thing they'll be fully accessible the lower stories will be um uh there'll be no barriers on the um the units themselves the 14 units right yeah there's two on the ground floor and 12 upstairs the two on the ground oh there's only two units

1:37:53total on the ground yes two units we only had one in our first proposal we added one and that took us over the 35 to the acre it took us to 35.7 we were at 33 and that one unit took us over the thing therefore the general plan Amendment for density so you so you can

1:38:10just roll in um absolutely okay there's a half inch lip maximum oh how would you get to the if you were in a person in a wheelchair and wanted to buy a unit on the second floor second and third or third floor right second or third floor yes um how would you get

1:38:30there yeah you don't you don't and uh you can the we do um we have over a thousand units of three-story apartment buildings under construction right now the second and third floor are fully adaptable they're accessible they can be made accessible just with very little detail and it uh

1:38:51um the the idea is that a person in a wheelch can be carried upstairs to their unit and then they're there that's that's California law I hear you um the um okay hence we have two instead of just one downstairs it's it's it's a those units are very popular and in

1:39:09demand by people who need them people who need them or not I mean they aren't just grabbed it by somebody else they're they're they're they're they're they're they're by people who need them okay when they're occupied in other words oh they're owner occupied definitely owner

1:39:25occupied and there's if you if you call it Contra Costa County for instance there's a waiting list on their housing for for accessible units okay um let's see so back to the um so what would you see the process if we were to move forward with the use of the house

1:39:47going towards a public use who would own it who would own it in that house yeah no there's there's various forms of of doing it it would all be uh would have looked at carefully with with Mr Biggs attorney and who and the city's attorney or the non-profits attorney you could do

1:40:05a hundred year lease for a dollar that's done a lot give it 100 year lease for a dollar we would own the property the the building would be leased or rented for a dollar some nominal sum uh we would pay taxes on the property maintain the property around the building whoever the

1:40:24non-profit was given to or donated to would be responsible for utility bills uh and any upkeeping maintenance on the building uh that's pretty common but they but we would do the whatever it took to make it uh make it usable by them and then the the terms of that

1:40:44would be negotiated and worked out but uh but we're willing to do it um there's a lot of comments there were a lot of people at the that the Planning Commission hearings three of them and um this house is a resource it's a it's a city it's a resource and valuable asset

1:41:05the third oldest home in the city very few cities have that and so you know we've been looking at it and looking at it and decided you know we've got 15 units include the house we we donate the house we got 14 we're at 33 we don't need a general plan Amendment uh the flip side of it is it's a Mr

1:41:22Biggs has been building and developing in El Cerrito for 50 years he's done a lot of those projects down on Liberty Street the ones with the basements and the parking and stuff he's done this those were his projects over the years so um you know we're looking at the project

1:41:38as a as something that we could do and dedicate it donate it and make it available for the Elm Street Community and that neighborhood so thank you do you have something Mark yeah a follow-up question to some of yours assuming that a home is converted for either

1:42:00uh to sell sells the residents or for public use about what percentage of the original home will actually be preserved given all the extensive Renovations that's a great that's a good question the uh um Tom panna's from Historic Society here has come to every meeting and um

1:42:23glad he makes a comment glad to see that it's being restored to the state historic standards historic fabric is a word they use it's shippo the state historic preservation office as they call it historic Fabric and depending on who's looking at it at the state all those Plumbing pipes on

1:42:39the outside and all those additions that have been done over the last hundred years some of that is historic Fabric and some of it's not and so we would work with the state historic building code and Endeavor to figure out what parts of that we're going to save

1:42:54because this if you go to the back side of that building it's a mess so we would try to remove it and restore it to its original historic intent and then and then fix it up so the exterior of the building there's not a whole lot we can do to that changing wise we we will take

1:43:11it and take the paint off it and we'll prep it and paint it we'll fix dry rot we'll fix the stairs the front stairs going up to that Homer in pretty bad shape and who knows when the last time they were repaired but we will fix those stairs and the building when it's done you can

1:43:30go on Dr Leach's house in Walnut Creek right downtown on Main Street we did that building and when we were finished with that it was restored even to the original paint colors it was a yellow and white kind of semi-victorian and but that's how what we're going to do here we're

1:43:48going to we're going to take the house and and restore it and it'll look uh it'll look really nice when it's done and the interior will be there's no historic Fabric in the interior that's documented by the historic people it's been changed so many times so we're

1:44:01going to make that uh usable by if it goes to a public entity that say needs offices or say uh someone wanted to use it and make it available as a museum for for the for the city and they wanted someone there on a Saturday open from nine o'clock or ten o'clock till five we would make it available so

1:44:24that you could have access to it by the public accessibility wise and tour the home but anything they did to restore it to what the period home of that Queen Anne style in 1890s was they would probably do that with fundraising and stuff because there isn't anything left on the interior I've

1:44:43got some photographs I didn't bring them it's pretty pretty bad thank you I do have a short break okay um I wanted to ask about Community Gardens if you want to do the short break while I'm asking you're welcome so I'm interested in the community garden aspect of this

1:45:05um have you thought about what kind of an arrangement there would be for the control of the community garden space yeah we have a little bit not not in depth we have some raised planter boxes for growing of herbs and stuff right now doing Urban Gardens is very popular in

1:45:23projects now we have Urban Gardens on some rooftop units rooftop bigger buildings six seven story buildings that we're doing to have this open space in the front available for a demonstration garden uh or or an herb garden so even the residents on Elm Street could have a

1:45:40plot they could get a spot the Garden Club could take it and then do amazing things with it so that space could be available uh for the Garden Club in our various entities to do that and it could be made available for that for kids to tour and see what uh are you

1:46:01suggesting that you would um as part of the development of this project provide those boxes yeah we could provide the boxes and stuff and the irrigation system to them in fact if we if we got with a proper non-profit we have Barbecues in there right now we have

1:46:16amenities that we would not put in there if it becomes a public park I mean it's just it it walks away quick disappears so we would make it more of a little more bulletproof but it but it could be yes we that's and that would be in um front of the house yeah it would

1:46:34be in the Front Street side yeah yes we would do some kind of a probably an axis off the street we have a trellis entrance we do an axis right up to the front door so you could see that pathway then on either side probably some if you if they wanted a demonstration Gardens

1:46:48planter boxes and things to do that with okay thank you okay um I think we're done with questions um I think we need to um wait before we proceed a little bit for Greg yeah thank you thank you very much thank you um so um if we wanted to sort of get ready for the next part

1:47:16um the um questions so the next item will be the appellant presentation and the um people involved in the presentation are Julia Lucia okay howdy goody um howdy Gowdy I mean excuse me Robin Mitchell uh Jason Hasley of the Keystone Montessori school and Linda shahabi I

1:47:51don't excuse me if I did that wrong did I do that wrong that was good okay and Mr and Mrs Dan and henia Pines so if you want to get yourselves ready organized we're ready I'm Julia Lucia and I will be speaking on behalf of my fellow appellants oh okay great good

1:48:10evening thank you thank you welcome yes and thank you for having us tonight I'm honored to be here speaking on behalf of my fellow appellants and as well as a great number of residents who have spoken to us and represented themselves as being opposed to this project

1:48:26um you know I was I was preparing for this presentation for the weekend um received the 530 page packet which I'm sure you all have seen and it really sort of threw me um I'm I'm new to to these kinds of procedures I have a planning background but I'm new to it um so what I'd like to

1:48:48do is sort of dial back and just really address the big picture if we could um the title page of my presentation is sort of a collage of all the awesome things that El Cerrito has done in the last many years since I've lived here but coming back I think I'd just like to

1:49:04introduce ourselves and let you know who we are um a group of us after this April 16th meeting convened and wrote an appeal to that decision by the Planning Commission we've also been contacted by many residents who have concern over this project you know professionals families

1:49:23who live in the area as you know our community has many retired people there are people who are living right near the project site and people who live far away who who are not too happy with this and we're learning more and more every day that that lots of people don't don't

1:49:37want this here um just as for me sure um I have lived in El Cerrito 10 years as of May 31st and I'm also a Keystone Montessori parent that's how I found out about this project I did study architecture at Berkeley and for 10 years I was a design and planning professional at Mig and I know you guys

1:49:58are familiar with those folks they're doing your specific plan so I've had some pretty good training with some great planners although this is my first exposure to local politics I should be ashamed to say that um you know a question that came up to me is who are we as a community who is

1:50:14El Cerrito um we have such a unique Community where we're multi-generational Multicultural we have a beautiful location and a really special history um from the the flower shops and the the plants and the Italian History we have natural assets that are really important

1:50:32to us we have two BART stations and we have such huge growth ahead of us and I really appreciate all the work that people have done to try to steer that growth in a good way um I recognize that this process has been a long one for the staff and for the developers and

1:50:48and for you guys and we do appreciate it and you know because of all these wonderful things that El Cerrito is we are naturally attractive to developers people want to develop here um you know from what I understand we've changed a lot in the last decade um we do things a lot better now you

1:51:06know we we've done um amazing Transit oriented development in in the right hand over here we have some really neat Creek restoration that has happened in Canyon Trail Park there's a really great historical preservation project going on in Eden Housing and you know we have our

1:51:23community center and our recycling center and all the great stuff that's happening on San Pablo Avenue so I just I take my hat off we take our hats off to the city who's who's done so much in the last decade um and when I say I I always mean we I don't know if I will always say that

1:51:40um we feel that the way the Elm Street project is proposed is really representative of the Old El Cerrito it's not really where we want to go and we feel that that El Cerrito's gotten a little bit lost on this one project you know as a new person to El Cerrito politics and maybe this is true for all

1:52:01local um proceedings I was I was surprised and I might be naive that um how linked the developer and the city staff are in their um efforts all the staff's presentation are in complete support of the development um as proposed and I understand that a lot of work has gone on behind the

1:52:21scenes to try to make it something that's important to us I've seen the iterations and that has been helpful but it is surprising to me how much um how much the staff and the developer are really intertwined in their interests and in the presentation of the information that was surprising to me

1:52:40um so the question that I ask and that we ask is who's really watching out for the residents of El Cerrito who's watching out for our best interests who's making sure that we're following all of the laws and values that we have and I have to say I'm very heartened by

1:52:54all the questions you guys have been asking I've been shopping at the bit to kind of get up here and talk but but it's awesome how much um how inquisitive everyone is and and you know I think everybody understands that this is a pretty big decision and we want to take our time with it and get

1:53:07all the facts straight um but you know nevertheless who is asking what's in the community's best interest how do we want our city to look and our established values being honored and luckily we have a lot of documents that can steer Us in that direction we have our general plan

1:53:22we have our zoning ordinance we have our our Creek guides and um people have spent a lot of smart people have spent a lot of time creating those documents and I think they're a good guide for us so um the presentation that I created really deals at first with a big picture

1:53:38and then our appeal actually has 11 areas of concern I was concerned we only had 15 or 20 minutes to talk and I think our presentation could easily run an hour going through each of those points because they are very dense and specific um I would like to speak to the big picture

1:53:56and then I would like to cover several areas of concern and I believe some fellow residents will cover other others of those in detail but I do ask that if I go a couple minutes over that I might be able to continue and finish the presentation because it seems that

1:54:11um the developer and architect have had a pretty lengthy time to speak and and this is pretty important so we did ask for more time if we could have a little more time I don't know if it will go over that would be great um I guess we'll come to that when when the

1:54:25time comes um so the big picture is um we feel that if a project has to ask for this many variances it's not right for El Cerrito we have our zoning laws we have our general plan um it shouldn't take that many special exceptions to make this project we feel inherently that the project is

1:54:47too big for the half acre site It's Too Tall it's too dense it's way too close to the neighbors and it's too close to a valued asset which is our Creek we really do feel that there has been even though there has been months of study we feel that more is required

1:55:06um I I have to say I really was truly overwhelmed by the 530 pages and I don't know how anybody can really get through all that density and and really understand what's going on so I think more time is required for this large decision also one thing to note is that when the

1:55:22when the Planning Commission really sat back and took the findings that they were required to find step by step they they did reverse their position and I think that's notable I think we think this plan ignores things that are important to us and our values like our Creek and our historic

1:55:38house our neighborhoods and overall we just feel that the price is too high for for the benefit of 14 new Transit oriented development units we think the price is too high and we can do better other points to note is now as of my creating this presentation there was

1:55:59Zero community support for this project that I knew of I know that there's one comment that arrived and maybe there's more that I'm not aware of but um there is considerable opposition to this project and I think as we all know good projects have a lot of community support

1:56:14that's what we want that's an indicator that's a healthy project that is something that's good for the community that benefits many people so this project does not have that um notable also is that our own Planning Commission does not support this development anymore they discuss the

1:56:30issues they we were happy with their deliberations we felt that they deliberated thoroughly and thoughtfully and they reversed their support overall you know a different project would be better for this site um the developer Mr Biggs has developed in other areas I I don't think this site

1:56:47is a fit for what he's trying to do and I don't think any of the residents that I've talked to you do either again we can do better foreign you know I think the benefit that's been displayed for this project is Transit oriented development and I think that is a great goal we we do support

1:57:05that um you know I know all the planning classes I took and all the meetings and you know Daniel isofano I mean he's along with Peter kellthorp he's Mr Mr Transit oriented development um that is that is a part of our value system as a community and I think we can achieve that goal um

1:57:22I don't think denying this project means that we are denying this value and I think that's very important to consider we are not saying no to Transit oriented development what it really feels like is this project is shoehorning itself into an inappropriate site it's inappropriate

1:57:42because of the size because of the two assets the Historical house as well as the creek and it's just not a good fit it's a shoehorned project so again I we do believe that we're paying too high a price for this project um if we say yes to the project what we're

1:57:59getting is 14 new Transit oriented development units which is great we want that it's close to a BART station however we lose forever an opportunity to possibly restore the creek and to properly honor this historic house which is again the third oldest home in our

1:58:16community I thought the historical preservation report or the historical report was fascinating I had no idea how long this family lived in this in El Cerrito I had no idea um anything about them and I think it's such an interesting story and I would love for my children to know that story

1:58:34and to know you know to be able to pass that on and to be able to see the actual place where it took place um if we do say yes to this development we are I believe and we believe we're saying no to thoughtful Transit oriented development as well as one day preserving and restoring the creek

1:58:51um we're not properly preserving our house the road rodoni house um you know concept that came up in the Planning Commission deliberations was tapered tapered zoning where you you're careful between transitions of different zones different housing zones so we're

1:59:08losing that that possibility my understanding also is with that decorative mansard roof that would preclude any solar panels being put on the roof I don't know for sure I'm fairly certain that that's the case I think we should investigate that further but you know in El Cerrito we have a

1:59:25huge um value and history of environmental stewardship and that that would be unfortunate if we couldn't do that on the site this having such a huge massive um structure really does change the neighborhood for the Neighbors as well as people who drive by I don't live near

1:59:41this neighborhood my daughter attends Keystone Montessori for about three more weeks and then we're gone but I drive by there four or five times a day and so do many hundreds of people and um I care about how it looks and I care about walking by and I care about the

1:59:56neighborhood and the character of the neighborhood another thing we're saying no to which is is a recognized component of Transit oriented design is affordable housing and there has been no mention or no effort to address this aspect of Transit oriented development it's it's

2:00:10important and I know that it's a value we have in our community you know I think I think we need to look sort of optimistically at what we have been able to accomplish um this is not our only option we can accomplish these things we can maintain our values and still develop this site

2:00:28and I'm just listing several examples of amazing stuff that our staff and our city council and our leaders have made happen um in our community we've we do do thoughtful Transit oriented design we do honor our historic assets um we care about the environment we care

2:00:46about affordable housing and this just seems so far out of line with our values and what we've done recently so that's why it kind of sticks out it has been a long process you know I understand that we're coming in sort of at the 11th hour or the perceived 11th

2:01:03hour and I know that there's been a lot of behind the scenes work that the public has not been part of um I can imagine that it would be very disheartening to start again with this site to start with a new thought process and a new design but if we really want to raise to the standards of what we can

2:01:20achieve we need it will take more time and work and I think it's worth it um I think we need to step back and consider all of the options I don't think that has really been done I think maybe I don't know for sure but my guess is the developer has proposed sounds

2:01:34like multiple times the development that he wants to do have we decided what we want to do and have we really looked through all the options of what's possible on this unique site as I said before I am very heartened by the the questions that have been asked thus far tonight but I do ask the

2:01:54question how much time do you guys really have to deliberate this together this is a serious changing our our zoning changing our general plan abolishing our Creek ordinance in this case it's a huge huge deal it's very serious um you know there were some very thoughtful well-intended people who put

2:02:13together these plans and these ordinances and these protections and I think we really have to take some time to debate is it worth it and what kind of a precedent are we setting if we do this um I don't think it can be debated in 15 minutes I think it takes more time

2:02:32you know it also requires some more creative thinking and I know that our city is a creative thinking Bunch um I think we are we are moving towards the future in a creative way um have we asked the question you know what we're gaining is 14 new Transit units Transit oriented units um 14 new

2:02:50places to live near the BART station really why not do it more creatively what if we did six units at the 1715 Elm Street what's wrong with six units is pretty good um and maybe we reach out to the residents of El Cerrito and give them some relief from the zoning laws and say

2:03:07Hey you know we're trying to find eight residences that will add an in-law unit to their house and maybe the setbacks can be adjusted slightly making maybe the parking can be adjusted slightly but we are trying to achieve 14 new units within the next two or three years how can we work together

2:03:25I think that's the kind of thinking we need to have so you know through the 530 page um packet there are many reports we've seen them there there are many experts who have done shading studies and biology reports um traffic studies parking studies and so forth but the question I ask is would there be

2:03:50a report conducted or presented that isn't inherently advantageous to building this new structure I don't think so I don't think the reports that they're presenting are going to be a problem I think I think it's our job to really ask the hard questions and really do some some major

2:04:09studies because this is such an important site to us so here are some reports that we would like to see is there a financial feasibility study you know we've been told that sorry we have to have this many units on this site to make it work okay let's see the numbers is that true is that really

2:04:27true um you know a really common practice in urban planning and certainly architecture is a site analysis and a neighborhood context study um I have to say I was a little bit surprised to hear that the architect didn't know about the continuation of the creek you know the boards and the

2:04:44concrete that is really something that an architect who's designing on a site should know the immediate context should be evaluated pretty carefully I also believe and I was taught this in architecture school that in order to really evaluate the validity and the quality of a design you

2:05:03really have to look at it in the context of where it is put I've noticed as a designer that none of the none of the pictures presented have any context there's not an elevation with the other houses or maybe there's a there's a slight um sketch of Keystone Montessori school but

2:05:20what about the other neighbors on the other side what about a three-dimensional computer study which could easily be generated from CAD drawings of well obviously they haven't drawn up the the neighboring properties but we need to study this as a community what is this community going to look

2:05:35like with this 42-foot structure next to a 12-foot structure with five feet in between and you know even as somebody who knows architecture it's not immediately apparent the DraStic um transition that creates without seeing it in 3D and it is possible to see that

2:05:53it's not hard I believe we also need to do a cost benefit study you know I think um council member um benassini I I really appreciated that she asked what are the what are the opportunity costs um what could be developed here have we looked at that have we looked carefully

2:06:10enough um what are the short-term and long-term trade-offs of this development decision you know this this building could be here for a hundred years and many buildings are um I don't mean to be Macabre but most of us will not be alive in 10 20 30 40 years many of us will not be

2:06:30here but our children will and um what are we leaving them you know what decisions are we leaving them we I really just think we need to step back and and really realize the gravity of this development decision I also had some other studies that I thought might be interesting as I was

2:06:48listening to the presentation um I think further study of the creek is required um you know I appreciate that we've had a biologist out there but there were several questions you couldn't answer we do have global warming so our climate is changing and we are reasonably to expect

2:07:04some pretty extreme weather I'll get into that a little bit later but you know liability flooding with four with four feet on each side I think we need to consider that other studies include accessibility you know that's a value that we have we we have people who need certain things to be accessible

2:07:25you know um one thing that I did at Mig was um was designing playgrounds among other things many things designing accessible playgrounds for children in wheelchairs accessible design is easy and it's good design so I I don't know why we haven't studied that a little bit further either

2:07:43yeah so one thing I think we want to say is um you know as a city it's not our responsibility to make sure that the developer can make the highest profit possible um it's really their responsibility to come to us with quality projects that uphold our values and propose those to

2:08:02us and I believe and we believe if we maintain our values which are clearly outlined in our general plan our zoning ordinances and our Creek protection developers will come to us and they will flock to us because we have such a quality City and we we are on that path

2:08:17and and we all that's why we all want to be here and that's why we all care um you know there we just want to remind you guys there are other options with this developer um if the developer chooses not to to build on this site he is free to sell it um and anecdotally I many people I've

2:08:36talked to about this project have mentioned oh well I've been interested in that project oh well my husband's a a contractor and he was always wondering about that project I mean just as a single individual I've heard a lot of interest in this project so I think I

2:08:49think somebody would want to build on this property and do it in a way that we value you know I think I think we've achieved so much great stuff in the last decade that I've been here um I think we need to hold our line and maintain our integrity and be selective

2:09:05and we need to not be afraid to take more time um it does cost money um to do things the right way it takes people's effort and I know a great deal of effort has been put in and I think we need more effort to achieve an outstanding result another question I have which was sort

2:09:22of answered in the presentation is what's the hurry um as far as I know this development has been empty since I've been here I guess the answer came in the architect's presentation which is they have tried to develop on here within the last 10 years I think it's

2:09:38telling that none of the proposed projects have gone through incidentally in the development agreement we found out at the last meeting that they are requesting 10 years to develop it so they want a 10-year window to be able to develop it I could be wrong about

2:09:53that that I believe that was discussed um so what's the hurry why not take another month why not take another two or three months I mean come on there is time to pause and reconsider you know again is it a lot of time and money has been spent but isn't it worth

2:10:12it to get it right this building could stand for another 100 years and um you know what are we doing it for I do want to mention one other thing um you know I don't know Mr Biggs I don't know him as a person or as a developer um one thing I would like to see as a

2:10:28citizen is a record of his development I mean there's been a lot of mention that he's been a developer for 50 years what kind of development has he created is it in line with our values what kind of a partner has he been um I know as a resident walking by and driving by that site

2:10:45almost every day for the last three years and and many times you know driving by certainly in a lot of walking in the last 10 years um to me it's appeared a dilapidated site there have been weeds the structure is is broken down the fencing has has always been broken and I know this is

2:11:03naive but to me a good neighbor would come up to the preschool and say hey you know I've got this lamb that is unused if you take care of the insurance I can you know why don't we just open a gate and let the kids play or extend your your outside area a little bit I

2:11:19mean is that like I mean I guess maybe that's not what happens in the real world but to me that would be indicative of a good neighbor we have an empty site we have a preschool how about a garden so I mean you know again not to get sentimental but um this is a picture of

2:11:36my daughter's preschool class and you know I really think we need to be thinking ahead and thinking who is this development going to affect um you know we're all going to have to live with it but you know these kids these kids could very well live for another 100 years in our in our um

2:11:54Society it's possible and what do what do we want for them so that sort of concludes my big picture part I would like to continue [Music] um with our appeal with highlighting several details of our appeal how much time has gone by um I think approximately 20 a little bit

2:12:14of over 20 minutes can we ask okay well respectfully you know the architect has had a considerable amount of time to speak that was the questions and you'll you will get that same okay opportunity okay well I I would really appreciate I mean I know you know we've been informed

2:12:31by um the clerk that it's up to the council to decide I I represent over 150 people and um I there's they all have an opportunity to speak that's fine well okay it's up to you guys um of course I have I have important points to clarify we look okay I would just I would just

2:12:50say that you can totally be assured that we've all read your appeal so I I would be I we've all read all the points that you've made and we all spend a lot of time in our packages so if there are things you want to highlight that kind of are above and beyond what we would

2:13:03have already read I would be open to taking another minute or a couple minutes no maybe five minutes yeah five minutes five minutes okay with everyone okay so if you could um and if the city clerk could keep track of that five minutes please well I'm gonna have to look through here

2:13:27you know I would um I I guess I would like to say something in response to um to how differently um how differently regulations and laws can be perceived this doesn't pertain to the slide I'm talking about right now the slide doesn't pertain to what I'm talking about right now but um it is

2:13:50striking to me that intelligent well-meaning people can see things so differently and I would recommend not looking at this screen right now because it's not what I'm talking about um you know that there are standards and findings that which were required to be

2:14:04affirmative in order to move this project forward and I did take a couple notes from Margaret's presentation and it really is astounding to me how they can be interpreted so differently one is um let's see in is a in a planned development district is there overarching public

2:14:22benefit um we don't believe that's been demonstrated um we believe that 14 new units of Transit oriented development have been proposed and there have been a number of trade-offs which the public has brought up but where is the overarching public benefit we really

2:14:39feel that we're losing a creek losing the potential for a creek restoration and we're really not honoring our historic past so we don't call that overarching public benefit um there was also a a point about the site being physically suitable um it would not adversely affect the

2:14:56neighbors we completely disagree it would it would hugely negatively impact the Neighbors in terms of um shading and I know that there's been a shading study but but our our neighbors think that it's not accurate we believe that it couldn't be more unstuitable so I really I really hope

2:15:16that you'll um approach all these questions from an open perspective using your own common sense and your own judgment and not taking um whatever recommendations have been given without really looking at it that's what we would hope because there really is a huge subjective nature to each of these

2:15:39decisions in each of these findings and it seems that we're really on opposite sides of it and in an intelligent well-meaning people can really have different interpretations and that's what I would encourage people to think about and um I guess I will just proceed to the

2:15:57end of the presentation which is I think we all believe that we can do better this isn't good enough for for our Creek this isn't good enough for our historical um preservation we can achieve this goal of 14 new Transit units some other way in a creative way that benefits

2:16:19everybody and that's I guess that's the conclusion of what I have to say um so now we move on to council questions of the appellant did you want to start Rebecca I'm happy to start thank you very much for the presentation and welcome to the chambers you did a very nice job and I'd also

2:16:41like to reserve the right to um call on my fellow appellants I was just going to say some of these questions for areas you might not be able to answer I guess I guess the first question is just a yes or no can solar be placed on the building that seems like a pretty easy

2:16:52answer okay so Mr Campo says yes so this is you are right that when we deliberate we want to get all the facts straight so you asked one so I wanted to get that one into the record thank you sorry I'm a fellow appellate howdy Gotti um so I yeah I believe that a mansard

2:17:09roof could support solar but it would probably be a diminished area compared to other roof types just because there is shading around the edges and and so it would be slightly constrained but I think a bigger issue for solar in this particular case is that it would be

2:17:24shading the adjacent property so severely that it could not use solar photovoltaic panels on its roof and furthermore it would shade the south facing windows that provide a lot of solar gain to the building and you know I'll present you later with what that actually means for the building but it

2:17:42basically means they would have an increased you know heating bill more you know fossil fuel use more CO2 emissions which is not consistent with you know the climate action plan so it has real impacts and real Financial impacts for the the property that's shaded so that's

2:17:57the solar impact that's most primary okay so not the new development thank you just clarify patient for staff Financial feasibility analysis we did not we we did not one was not submitted and can you describe for us the reasons for that yes um recently you had a number of projects

2:18:19before you Ohlone Gardens Eden next door to us that were a affordable housing project and in part of our negotiations with those kind of development Partners we do get to work with their performer we get a copy of it in a market-based development that is something we can

2:18:34always ask for but it is rarely provided in a market rate discussion okay thank you one more question for staff and then Mrs Lucia all to you um that with regard to in-law units I recall that we've been exploring making in-law units easier to permit around BART stations and potentially in other

2:18:53areas can you update us on whether or not that's underway or if that's a future Endeavor or and what the process is right now right now if you meet certain development standards you can have an in-law unit uh right and if you um are challenged on parking if you have

2:19:11to do something that's exceptional beyond what our development standards call for it's a conditional use permit the housing element update is is underway again and these are a number of ideas that we would be taking forward in that in that effort but we haven't taken the

2:19:27BART station an in-law unit topic per se Ford at this time okay thank you okay I was interested during the presentation that you noted and given your background that you noted maybe six units on the site is that something is that a number you kind of tried to sketch on the

2:19:45ground or is that a number that you came up with in some other manner I I don't have the calculations in my head but the um the appellants and myself were thinking you know one one topic that comes up in our appeal as well as in our discussions is the idea of tapered

2:20:00um taper development tapered zoning so this particular site is right on the edge of the residential multi-use and it's right next to let me make sure I get it right it was in my notes right next to the residential duplex so we're talking about really on the very border

2:20:17of this which is a 20 to 35 unit range of 25 to 35 density unit range so the permitted we feel that the general plan sort of is saying there's a range to consider it's between 20 and B and 35.

2:20:3535 is the maximum that that would even be possible and they're going beyond that granted by 0.7 units but still they're hitting up against the maximum I think good design and good development really takes into consideration the context and if you do look around the

2:20:54site not from an aerial view but from a human view when you take a look around it really is one and two-story um buildings homes there is nothing that is near 42 feet visually in that vicinity so a more realistic approach or a more um I think a more thoughtful and a more

2:21:14attractive approach would be to to be somewhere in the lower range of the recommendation about 20 density units or even lower because the the density the requirements for duplex residential are 11 to 20 I believe so why not have a graduation of of units why not develop

2:21:33the next 42-foot multi-family right next to the other one or nearby but why have it be 12 feet 42 feet it just it visually and um aesthetically it doesn't make sense and it really takes away a sense of place that we have we have a sense of you know when one of our assets is a beautiful

2:21:53sense of place in our neighborhoods and this would be the start of of really losing that okay so two follow-ups on that so in your discussions was it then put forward that potentially the appellants might support 35 feet on the middle of the property and then a lower height level on the

2:22:14north side of the property you know I think I think what we were thinking more is a taper development not within the site itself but within the zones themselves so closer to the middle of the zones would be the higher um the higher units and closer to the edges of

2:22:29the zones which which a butt to the lower density or the lower height would be the lower Heights so I think I mean I don't know if I can I think that we would be more amenable to something that's two stories high that that is you know maybe the height of Keystone or a tiny bit higher but not

2:22:45twice the height so a two-story development with surface parking lot would be preferable you know I I would I know I know it's really hard but I just have to see the design and I would have to see in the context of the neighborhood and I think we all would I mean I think that's the

2:23:01point I think you know and Architects make beautiful drawings and I think this is a well thought out um complex I mean I think you know that's attractive I wouldn't mind living there as a person but when you take it in the context of the neighborhood and what it does to the neighborhood I think

2:23:15it's undesirable um you know it is possible to make a very attractive rendering but when you put it in the context of the neighborhood how does it work and that's the big question a question on the and I don't this is going to be hard to answer as well but there's been a lot of discussion about

2:23:30how this proposed development would destroy the creek I guess I'd like to hear and I know we don't have like a sort of you know a consultant the way the developers have a consultant but are there thoughts that you all put together as to why you say it destroy it's why

2:23:46you torment destroying the creek I don't think we've I don't I hope I haven't determined it that way I think um losing the correct I think what we're doing I think the distinction we'd like to make is um losing the potential for restoration and um we do have a fellow appellant who is

2:24:02pretty well versed in the creek issues um I don't know if Robin would like to say something on that or I'm sorry as well Robin will be speaking to the creek issue more and I think Julia did a great job of saying that it really is about potential I mean saving the creek isn't

2:24:17just letting it be the way it was your your very own Creek ordinance calls for restoration it calls for a setback so that there's room for restoration and all you need to do is look at you know Canyon Trail Park where a concrete lined you know few hundred feet of compromise

2:24:34Creek was you know returned to you know really wonderful potential so it's it's really about what can be done it's not about what you know amphibians or insects are there right now because it has been neglected it is a relic of you know the the type of um development that has you know

2:24:57persisted for the last 50 or 100 years where we don't respect The Creeks we build right up to them and we destroy their potential but your own Creek ordinance says we're done with that we want to do better by our Creeks we want to give them the room to restore them

2:25:13properly and yes they are islands we have to make do with islands for now but there are many of these islands and in fact there are more of them than have been said exist because as it has been reported you know it's not culverted on the adjacent property it's actually

2:25:31daylighted at the Ohlone path you know there are other places where that Creek and other Creeks can be restored and that's the kind of pockets that we need to you know enhance we can't just leave it the way it is we have to enhance these spaces and and that's what we're losing if we

2:25:49don't do it so we're really doing you know 20th century development in the 21st century we need to actually you know follow the the guidance of the creek ordinance that was Visionary enough to say you know we've made mistakes in the past and we can do better in the future we need to you know

2:26:06preserve enough buffer restore them you know you would you would have a wider you know expanse of of space that was you know a natural part of that Creek system and you can do a lot in that the the animals will come yes you're not going to have steelhead coming up the

2:26:22creek but you will have you know you can have a frog pond you can have dragonflies and butterflies and you can have birds and trees and native plants and a lot more than what's there now just because it's not there doesn't mean it can't exist and putting something

2:26:38paved there instead is basically preventing it from existing so in terms of so in terms of balancing you know this project is all about balancing the historic house the creek the transit oriented nature of the site and the city's goals for producing as many of our future units near Transit as

2:26:57possible is the idea then that you would get rid of the stone where one might explore getting rid of the stonework in the creek moving the historic house away from the creek to be outside of that buffer area and then developing on the remainder of the site is that so when

2:27:16you're balancing historic creeks and TOD is that sort of the balance I think the the primary thing would be you know you have to be context sensitive about where the Tod goes I mean a historic property with a creek probably isn't a place for Tod at all it's a place to preserve so that the

2:27:35Tod nearby is a pleasant place to live because you've got interest in community attributes nearby and you know there's we shouldn't speculate about the you know how the creek would necessarily be restored I mean yes it would probably be proper you know to relax the bank in in

2:27:54enlarge it to do the best by the creek there's the historic aspect of this is a historic Rock and you'd have to go there but those are better you know battles to be having than you know should there be 14 units built on top of this Creek the 14 units you have Transit oriented zones

2:28:15elsewhere and that's where you know that density belongs 14 units is a drop in the bucket compared to what should be happening on you know San Pablo Avenue as you know dictated by the current Transit oriented multi-use zones and the San Pablo specific plant so it's really

2:28:31not this overarching public benefit that is being claimed we believe that it's much bigger public benefit in you know the form that it is which is a unique historic property with an environmental element that has a lot of restoration potential so I just want to address the fact that I

2:28:51know you're trying to get us to agree to some you know parameters but I think that's not the point we can't say now what we would you know agree to whether it's a two-story building or six units or how the creek would be restored the the issue is that you know it has to be

2:29:07thought about again plans need to be developed smart people need to come up with interesting ideas and we're not gonna We're not gonna say you know this is what would be okay with us it's just you know it's it's not this is not the venue for doing that that requires

2:29:22thoughtful design process and so that's what would have to happen so you know if you keep asking us questions about you know is this going to be good enough or would we be happy with this I don't think it's going to get us very far right yeah thank you I just want to hear

2:29:37what are the most Salient of the appellants points and I I'm hearing height yes Creeks at back I haven't I think historic building I'm assuming historic building and I just want to continue to recognize that when we're prioritizing three things we were something is gonna something is

2:29:56going to get lost either there's not I want to just understand whether or not we're going to get at we want this to be public we want this to be a public use or we want to somehow generate enough private Revenue in order to restore the house restore the creek not use the land

2:30:12so that's what I'm thinking about when I'm thinking about how to balance these three things well I think the balance balance may come in reducing the density right but still generating enough revenue from private development in order to restore the house that sort of

2:30:25thing okay thank you um with regard to the last item you probably aren't able to react to but a donation proposal has been made um I don't think I don't know that you can even react to it I'm assuming this is the first time this proposal has been made that no members of the Historic

2:30:44Society or other non-profits around the city are aware of it okay so I assume I wanted to give you a chance to give a risk any thoughts on that or to just Reserve judgment my personal thought is it's better than a plaque I know it does give it does give more opportunity for um recognition and maybe

2:31:03some storytelling um that's my personal take on it I think other people might have other takes on it um it still doesn't address the creek issue or the height issue which are also significant so I mean I think it's a nice gesture but it doesn't go the full distance so if I may Julia

2:31:22um I was surprised to learn it's interesting I think it's too much to react to in in this you know next few uh minutes or hours um the um the thing that it spoke to me was inconsistency because the the developer has been saying that he needs you know this many units to be a

2:31:46profitable Pro profitable project but when the Planning Commission turned them down or you know gave a negative recommendation they apparently got scared enough that they needed to offer something and so it basically means that I can't trust what they've been telling

2:32:03us because it's it's a changing you know it's a changing mark and um I I feel that that's you know part of a pattern of sort of not being very um you know consistent with the um you know the information that we're getting is is you know a little bit questionable I

2:32:26mean thing you know details about the creek that they're not aware of that it's you know not at a pipe at the at the border of the property it's very concerning that they would be designing head walls for nowhere for that to connect to so I mean I I'm just concerned by you know their veracity on

2:32:44these details and you know when when I learned something like you know we need all those units to make a profit and then they're willing to give one away it it just doesn't read right to me that they're being a good partner for the city so thank you that's it for me at

2:33:01this point Jim okay Mark um the appellants raised the issue of the 10 years that the developer is asking for and my question is why is 10 years required the housing market is as hot as it's been in five or six years and the architect said these units would be snapped up immediately why do you need

2:33:2910 years and why would we Face a total of 20 years if you took that whole 10 years with that property not contributing to our community foreign I just looked over my shoulder to see if the architect was going to address that but I can start off he's willing to yeah

2:33:49yeah that might be best coming from him we went through a heck of a recession in the last seven years six years and um though our projects that had development agreements on them were uh were lasted through this last period and they they didn't have to go back and lose their entitlements we have

2:34:12other projects that get the standard two-year approval one-year extension then you're back to the drawing board and so it's a it's a matter of just coarse most most development developers and and Architectural Planning Companies are asking for if we can get at a

2:34:27development agreement that extends the project out in case we have another crisis are you whatever you're reading the newspapers and the in the business times it could be another crash in four years we plan should we receive your approval starting immediately on construction documents

2:34:44and building the project that's our that's our plans uh but you just hedging hedging all bets that's what that's what we're asking for in most communities now rather than the two and one year extension and then you start all over again could be a it could be tough for this

2:35:02for this project that answer your question yeah yeah thank you Miss Lucia and the project appellants um the the properties the properties that you're comparing to in this area will will change in time and and so to to compare it to the current use is that is that

2:35:26disingenuous to because the the whole area is going to change I mean we want more Transit oriented development you you your group is is supporting Transit oriented development so these these smaller structures including the one immediately to the north will change at

2:35:40some point so to to compare to that structure you know today uh when 20 or 30 years from now that structure will be four stories or three stories high I I'm just curious what what's the rationale for for that particular comparison um so I think the importance is not the

2:36:02individual um properties that are there now but they are your zones the zones in your planning documents this is the border of a Zone and we are arguing as your you know San Pablo specific plan is about to argue that you have to have a harmonious transition between zones and so yes

2:36:23you're right there may be turnover the next property May develop but all of them should not be allowed to be maximum density on the border of a property now that might not seem like that's encoded in your policies to date but I would read the zoning documents the idea that

2:36:42it says 21 to 35 units it gives a range for a reason right I mean they're not all going to be 25 they're not all going to be 35 units right so which ones are going to be 35 and which ones are going to be 20. well if the bordering Zone has you know whatever it is 11 or 12 to 20 then

2:37:04wouldn't it make sense that you kind of match the 20s at the border and that you have you know the maximum at the core you have the transition at the border now that might not be explicit but it's pretty common sense and it and it bakes in a good harmonious outcome for the city so it's

2:37:23really about where you're putting you know a project like this it's not it's not about what might be built next door it's it's what the planning direction is for it for the overall um change that that would be happening so what we're asking you is to be thoughtful about building in a

2:37:44harmonious transition and not putting maximum density on the border and and by the way it's not just putting maximum density allowed in the RM Zone in in place it's carving out a little 0.4 acre plan development pimple that is just a discontinuity in the system so

2:38:04it's poor planning practice to just allow this exception I mean because then what what you're arguing is well you know things should change next to it so do you put another pimple next to it later I mean we have Zoning for a reason so that you know it it's a fabric that

2:38:23hangs together and the way you make that fabric hang together well is to really blend those Transitions and manage them rather than putting exceptions on the intersections of zones but the but isn't the street itself providing a transition the the structures across the street on

2:38:38the east side are you know two-story talls with very uh pitched roofs and they look like they have 15 foot ceilings inside their second story so they're those structures are fairly tall across the street for the Rd for the dense residential uh yeah and it could

2:38:57match the other side I mean I don't think we want a a big step change just because it's a street it's it's not you know like you're you're going to want a big step change from you know 35 Plus units on one side to 20 plus units on the other side I'm arguing for a meeting

2:39:12of the mines in the in the middle of blending a tapering you know really integrating your planning into a continuous fabric rather than discontinuities at the street level then what about the back of the lot to work on council member benesini's question can the back of the lot be higher

2:39:31um actually I think property tapering towards property lines is is generally appropriate as well in your zoning currently calls for that in in residential you know they have these sort of angled uh envelopes that you have to stay within and I know that is generally

2:39:46um not how denser development is allowed you can have things stacked right up next to each other in in those types of zones but um I think I personally am interested it's not really a big point of this um argument but I am interested in solar access as you know a I mean there are

2:40:06communities that have solar access ordinances and and it should be possible to get you know light on your property so I think just that sort of um motivation is something that says that yeah tapering your property lines is appropriate too but I would I would not say it's

2:40:26well I guess in the vein of what I was arguing in terms of tapering towards boundaries yes maybe the back could be higher than the front because it's face the back is facing the the core but I think you know there are other considerations in terms of transitions to immediate neighbors

2:40:45that have to be considered thank you moving to a different topic and I actually have no idea who's going to answer this question um Mr Campos testified that the historic resources evaluation report which is part of the initial study in mitigating says that the rock walls are a historic

2:41:06feature and and having read through this and skimmed through it and looked at it again I'm not seeing it actually conclude that in black and white so I was just curious if if there's somebody out there that can tell me where in this report it concludes it says certainly about the structure but

2:41:24it does not necessarily say anything specific about the or at least I didn't catch a uh specific uh sentence that said the rock wall was considered historic yeah we've got Mr Mr panis is approaching the podium good evening hi my name is Tom panas I live at [address removed] in El Cerrito

2:41:54um what actually happened there was when Mr verbally wrote the updated historic resources report he basically said and all the considerations and um character defining features that were included in the original 2006 report written by Michael Corbett and in that report it cited The Rock

2:42:18Line Creek it's cited the out structures it cited the unique wire fence and I think the fruit trees as being character defining features of the property is that the question you're asking councilman um even this report talks about the property and the property including all

2:42:39those things but but it talks about it as a group and it never specifically identifies the rock wall creek as the feature that should be retained to capture the I learned a new term the historic fabric the historic fabric of the property so I'm just I'm trying to

2:42:58find out if there is a specific statement about the rock wall uh preserving the historic fabric of the property um I would need to borrow perhaps uh Miss Kavanaugh Smith's report to see if I can find the spot where refers to Michael Corbett's report so give me a

2:43:17couple minutes on that while you certainly and I'll go on to my next question it certainly Michael Corbett's 2006 report is in the bibliography but but I uh and it may be cited somewhere in here so I'll I'll give you a minute to do that um but I will ask the question to the

2:43:33appellants uh is the current rock wall valued by the appellant team um you know I think it's a difficult thing to for me to answer for the group I mean um it's it's not really our uh particular Focus we are interested in you know preserving the potential for the creek and I realized that it's a

2:44:01tricky balance when you have a historic aspect and an environmental aspect in in Conflict it happens all the time in the National Park system you have you know an environmental goal but you have a historic structure that was you know built in some way that's not consistent

2:44:18with the environment so that's that's a big problem to sort out that we're not trying to solve that problem we're trying to preserve the potential for the creek and the potential for the site both historically and environmentally and sort out that balance at some other

2:44:35time I mean right now there is an incredible pressure to diminish both the historical and environmental pressure by how the house is treated and how the creek is treated and we're we're trying to remedy that and then if at some other point we had the opportunity to try to

2:44:52figure out the balance between Creek restoration and rock wall restoration we could go there but I don't have that answer for you I mean I think personally for me it might mean relaxing the bank on you know all of one side and half of the other side and leaving it near the

2:45:09house so that you have that that continuity I mean I I personally believe in the environmental restoration aspect a bit stronger than the historical aspect of the rock walls just because okay there are things that are you've said you've said what I wanted to hear

2:45:23thank you um Japan says return he's furiously flipping through sorry Tom ah actually it was the wonderful people in back who found it before I did so on page 28 there's a direct reference to the creek and on page 13 is actually a picture of the retaining wall of the stone Line

2:45:43Creek so on page 28 that is the area where it's talking about the property as a whole as opposed to the structure as a sole piece of yes I mean when Mr Corbett wrote the report he was actually at least as impressed by the property as a whole than he was by the historic

2:46:04structure in fact it's interesting that Mr verplank was able to successfully argue that the house was historic for architectural and design reasons as opposed to Mr Corbett only made the assertion well the correct assertion that the house was uh that the with the cultural aspect and he

2:46:22ignored the architectural aspect Mr verplank actually brought out the architectural aspect so when I say the cultural aspect that includes all the characteristics of the property that would be the house but then also the creek this Mr Carver you've never spoken to Mr

2:46:39Corbett but he it would be hard to describe his comments about the stone Line Creek I think he feels like he's never seen anything like that in California um and also the fence and the outbuildings and the fruit trees which were representative of a typical Italian Homestead in the new

2:47:01world uh in that era does that answer your question sir it it does but as I read this it it really does talk about the entire property the fabric of the property and and if the fabric of the property is lost as a result of taking out fruit trees and and grape arbors and carefully tilled ground

2:47:22in an irrigation system and well house and windmill in a tank house both demolished in 68.

2:47:28and and leaving just its stone-bound Creek I'm left trying to figure out how the stone bound Creek in and of itself meets the the characteristics of a historic structure there's no doubt in my mind that that Creek if you want to try and register on the California region I

2:47:51don't know to make the national register I think that Creek would make the state register as a unique resource uh of its type in the state that's not what they argued here they're talking about the fabric but that Creek is extraordinarily unique we're very fortunate to have it

2:48:07but when I look at the mitigation measures for this this item the cultural resources section in the in the initial study mitigated neck deck it it focuses on the building and it and although that's because they're analyzing the proposed project and the proposed

2:48:23project preserves the the rock wall Rock sorry Stone bound the stonebound creek it doesn't have any mitigation measure that requires for maintenance or cleanup or access or viewing or documentation of none of the of the mitigation measures address the the creek the stone bound

2:48:48Creek this is true the developer did kindly agree to pay for a fixed amount of historic documentation regarding the site and my back of the envelope scratching thought well maybe that would include the creek I don't know but you know I would hope that the community would be

2:49:12involved in what that if the project goes forward what that historic preservation documentation on site how it would appear right thank you any other um I have a question Council questions so Mr panis could you return for a minute so so I know in your humble opinion

2:49:36um yes you're making uh a possible claim that the reason that this could possibly have state historic um claim would be because of the rock wall I mean I'm no no I'm not saying that what I'm saying is I would guess that a skilled architectural or cultural historian like Christopher plank or Mr

2:50:01Corbett could make an argument that the rock wall the whatever the words that Mr Line Stone bound Creek could qualify on its own as a state probably not a National Historic resource does that answer your question yes and and then I had a question if this would be a City

2:50:25Attorney question but um so the property on Liberty that was referenced in some of the slides and also on my walk has several properties where you have single family home maybe a Triplex five plaque small apartment building three-story buildings that maybe had five or six units of the

2:50:47garage underneath and then a first floor in the second floor so they're basically three floors but maybe not as tall but there are buildings that are 35 39 and 40 feet tall particularly the tallest I believe was on the corner of Liberty and Hill is that right Liberty

2:51:06and Hill so there's always on that particular Street and also on the the odd side of the odd then what would be the west side of Wells well Elm Street there's also many different um it's not all duplexes in other words there's some triplexes and and other buildings I'm a little confused about

2:51:28what tapered Zony and transitional zoning what the appellants are asking there I'm having trouble with that because I'm not seeing that exist now as it is and can can you clarify that for me or maybe you're not the person maybe maybe that's probably a legal and a

2:51:49planning response to that which is why I'm looking at Miss Kavanaugh Lynch and I'm out I was gonna say I'm happy to give you the legal side of it um and she can probably take the planner's view of it um what I understand in my experience have seen is that some general plans and

2:52:07zoning ordinances and coordination will say something like you know the range of density in this area is 20 to 35 units per acre but around certain like it'll say which where where zones or general plan designated areas but up against each other they'd like to see like a

2:52:28stepped of if possible a stepping of density um so that it is it's a closer match where the borders are between the districts with increasing density as it gets more towards the interior of um of the zone or the or the general plan designated area does that makes

2:52:45sense so if if one area says 20 to 35 and another area that's immediately adjacent says 10 to 20. you'd like to like some of them say specifically that they'd like to see in essence 20-ish around the border of them and then lower densities in the in the one with the

2:53:05lower end and higher densities in the other end but away from each other so that the districts match each other a little bit better as they butt up against each other I will also say though that in my experience where I've seen that as areas where I I don't see

2:53:17that as often in built out communities it's much easier to to achieve and something that communities it's more often a feature of planning documents of areas with significant portions of undeveloped land because it makes sense that as you are creating you want things to transition consistent

2:53:36with the plans it's harder to achieve and therefore something that I don't see as much in urbanized areas that are largely built out could I just ask a follow-up do you also see it in cities like ours where our high density is only is only up to 35 units per acre like I could I would

2:53:53Envision in a city where there's a really wide range that that makes a lot of sense where we're going only up to 35 have you seen that in a more so inner array area Suburban type of community like ours no I really have seen it more in um sort of for example like Eastern

2:54:11Contra Costa is an area where I am familiar with with areas that that have have had that um but I I but I haven't seen it I mean it's the the reason I haven't seen it in in highly urban areas is that you wouldn't see necessarily uh it's less it's less common that you see um like zoning that

2:54:31has you know 200 units to the acre right next to a zone that has you know five to ten units to take or it doesn't it certainly happens as a as a consequence of historic development but it's not something that you necess and so it might it might exist as a recognition of

2:54:46what's already there but it's not something that that in terms of advanced planning you actually put into the documents as something to achieve because you can't transition five to ten to you know 100 to 200.

2:54:59I'd like to suggest that it's getting pretty late and I'd like to allow our public to speak before it gets any later and I think that the council can ask questions later should we so choose yes please I'm good so I would like to at this point move on to public testimony

2:55:17so if you're interested as a member of the public in speaking then hopefully you've already filled out a speakers slip and giving it to the city clerk over here but if you haven't you can do so at this time and um if um if it's towards the end of the public speakers

2:55:36and you haven't do it done it then maybe what we'll have you do is uh speak and then do the slip later but right now we'd like you to fill out a slip if you think you want to speak uh how many speak do you know how many we have four I have 14 speaker slips speakers okay

2:55:52can you call the first three please the first three speakers are Tom panas Cynthia Hilton and Dan Pines please thank you and I'll be watching from a private office for just a few minutes while I attend to infant business [Laughter] good evening mayor Abelson members of

2:56:24the council and City staff my name is Tom panis and I live at [address removed] in El Cerrito the proposal for 1715 Elm Street property has come a long way I'm particularly pleased to learn the applicant will be restoring the building in accordance with the secretary of

2:56:39interior standards for the treatment of historic properties this is extremely important and I'd like to remind everyone that this should be the norm in our city what we do in every such case the current proposal and Visions restoring the facade as party architectural mitigation package for the

2:56:55record I'd be happy to do whatever I can to support that restoration last year's historic resource evaluation found the site to be eligible for listening on the California register of historical resources for two separate reasons for its cultural significance as well as

2:57:09for its design it's clearly appropriate that we mitigate for the cultural impact as well as the architectural impact on the site I'd like to thank the applicant for his willingness to provide a one-time payment to fund interpretive materials for the proposed Plaza

2:57:22once again this is how it should work in all cases not just this one regarding the creek I'm assured the applicant will religiously comply with all the processes and rules promulgated by the California Department of Fish and Game the state Regional water quality

2:57:37board and all the other organizations that have jurisdiction over our precious creeks do I need to say that this should be the standard in El Cerrito since the historic resource will be restored in accordance with the Secretary of the Interior standards I suggest the council directs staff to add

2:57:52a stipulation to the development agreement this would require that the applicant and a successor owner supporting nomination of the historic structure to a local register the California register or the national register and finally I'd also suggest that the council discuss

2:58:07the duration of the development agreement to me 10 years seems like a long time thank you for your time this evening thank you next speaker Cynthia Hilton followed by Dan Pines is this a good position for the mic okay I wrote These remarks this afternoon obviously before

2:58:36I heard the architect's presentation and wow before I heard the appellate's presentation because it's like some of that vocabulary was taken out of my brain it was really interesting hearing those vocabulary words anyhow um just to be redundant I'd like to State

2:58:57my continuing opposition to this proposed project the specific project after scrolling through scroll scroll scroll the 530 page packet for this meeting tonight I found the lack of response by the city council and its staff to neighborhood and citizen concerns stunning

2:59:18I also found that the packet was incomplete believe it or not in at least one respect and if in one respect who knows how many others my own comment letter delivered to the planning meeting on May 21st was omitted from that packet so I'm not sure what else might have

2:59:36been left out I've been I've attached a copy of my May 21st comments to each copy of the letter I'm reading right now but I wonder were other negative documents omitted from the packet so that staff and or city council members were provided with an unjustifiably positive representation a

2:59:54public feeling about this proposed in my opinion heavy over development 1715 Elm Street it may not be easy to overlook more than 100 concerned citizens who have made their objections to this specific development known but if enough documents are left out perhaps the hope

3:00:09is we'll just build our tents and go quietly away Into the Night many substantive serious and quality of life questions have been raised throughout this process the public process this year almost all of which have been hand waved Away by staff responses from what I read in that

3:00:26packet over the weekend instead of thoughtful or even analytical responses a resolution pre-written by staff beginning on page 337 of the packet which displays absolutely no awareness or evidence of the prolonged and large public outcry against this wedged into

3:00:41the shoehorn anti-historical and environmentally insensitive development has been incorporated into the packet and that was before the public statements and presentations tonight all concerns regarding the project were ignored by not being responded to or brushed aside in a rush

3:01:00it seemed to show that indeed this project somehow does conform to these statistical characterization of our neighborhood as opposed to its actual reality or for some other reason unknown to me at least were made to appear irrelevant or completely trivial why why it occurred to me although I

3:01:22hesitate to say it that perhaps El Cerrito was being run on a golden rule basis now which just makes me sick to think about it but that did cross my mind those who have the gold make the rules type of golden rule but I wanted to say that this project has currently designed will have irrevocable

3:01:42negative and long-lasting effects on the immediately surrounding neighborhood I live at [address removed] also built originally by an Italian immigrant to this country in 1921 no matter how City staff may choose to characterize our neighborhood with Statistics which may appear apply to

3:02:01areas further away in El Cerrito and or which were slain beneath previous poorly advised development like the buildings shown to us earlier on the opposite side of the block at the end of 1700 block of Liberty by Hill they really stick out from the rest of the neighborhood

3:02:26I live only a block away I don't know where the developer lives so the rubber stamp appearance of the pre-written resolution raised questions in my mind so if this project exactly is it sprang forth in the mind of Zeus so to speak has been meant for approval why did the

3:02:43Planning Commission beat their brains out so much are we so desperate for these 15 units of housing when the newspaper last Friday said 500. you're now way way over time there's a lot of other people that like to speak before it gets too very much thank you thank you yeah that's

3:03:00thank you I I was busy listening uh next speaker please the next three speakers are Dan Pines followed by Dave Weinstein and Jason Hasley good evening mayor ebelson and the other honored gentleman and ladies here tonight my name is Dan Pines and together with my wife henya Pines we own the duplex at

3:03:37[address removed] which is just North of the of the project at 1715 Elm Street uh it's a one-story duplex and uh we uh something came up uh from one of the council members mentioned well things are going to change over time so uh that one story uh duplex will be a two-story or three-story uh

3:04:13we're not thinking of that we're thinking that we have a one-story building and right next to our fence 10 feet from our fence they want to build a three-story building uh uh 42 feet high with 14 units and on that stretch of Elm Street between Blake and cutting most

3:04:37buildings are one story high none are more than uh two stories this is on Elm Street and outside of the street even though it is multi-unit the other side of the street is our old duplexes and they don't reach such Heights as what is planned here so we feel that by building a building

3:05:04such as this on such a small footprint uh it'll block out light and air add noise pollution and invade privacy to our one-story duplex also the density of living space will greatly exceed the norm and the building will be set back just six feet from the existing Creek where

3:05:2530 feet is the norm and the current plan has 15 parking spaces instead of 21 thus parking will be a problem because if each unit has more than one car 15 or more cars will compete for street parking um we saw the packet online 530 pages wow that's like a Russian novel

3:05:52it seems very complex but it's not really let's look at the simple facts on one side you have a delafer who wants to maximize profit by building a huge complex on a small lot and the developers supported by the Planning Commission staff who are trying to push this project through by skirting

3:06:12any issues raised and totally disregarding public opinion on the other side is the public the neighbors don't want it not only the neighbors but every El Cerrito resident that spoke at the last three hearings in front of the Planning Commission objected every single one without

3:06:33exception you could wrap up your out of time thank you the Planning Commission voted against it by recommending that the city council not amend the general pan not rezone the planned development zoning District consequently amending the zoning map and to not approve an agreement with the

3:06:51valeveloper so as your constituents please vote against this project thank you thank you next Dave Weinstein followed by Jason Hasley I am Dave Weinstein had to emphasize I'm not wearing any of my organizational hats but to speak in uh purely uh on my uh on behalf I think the city has done a

3:07:17pretty good job in working with the developer in um preserving the historic house and to a degree in uh preserving the creek I know Tom panis has done a very very good job too for a while there people were saying it wasn't even a real Creek um I do however agree very strongly with

3:07:34howdy I think it's important to try to give some space around that Creek for more uh natural restoration of it I know that's only a small stretch of Crete but as he says those are the kind of creeks that we have in town left small stretches perhaps a bit more work could

3:07:50uh provide more um more room for that Creek to uh be natural I I am of course you know very much interested and and everything Tom was saying about the value of that stone line uh Creek that that really is true that that alone is a very important thing but I believe that with a bit more

3:08:08thinking talking perhaps a portion of that could be retained in this historic masonry work while at the same time more land can be provided for natural habitat around that Creek thank you thank you Jason Hasley followed by Pamela Austin good evening my name is Jason Haisley

3:08:29I'm a resident and property owner in El Cerrito so I do have a vested interest in how the city is developing I thank you for your time tonight I know it's getting very late I do share the concerns I'm raised by other members of the community I do not support the project I believe that the

3:08:49scope and size is inappropriate for a site that's less than half an acre and actually I think it sounds like a lot of you have visited the site actually half of that site is going to house these 14 units so it's even a smaller postage stamp where this development is going to

3:09:04occur I also share the concern that this is going to fundamentally alter the neighborhood I also did want to address just a few points that were raised initially to the Community Development Department in their PowerPoint had a slide that said why did the Planning Commission have a

3:09:24change of heart I think the more imp important question is why is Staff still pushing for the approval of this project the Planning Commission is designed to review and consider these types of projects and they did that and they determined that it wasn't appropriate

3:09:43for the site so why is Staff still pushing for this um this the staff report also had a slide that had the definition for high density and one of the quotes that I saw in there was it said these developments should be located outside of single-family residents I think it's a

3:10:04little disingenuous for the developer to be putting up pictures of Liberty Street not Elm Street and anyone that's walked around there gets the sense I think that that is primarily a single family resident area and that this is out of out of line with what's there now

3:10:25the other thing I just I've been at a lot of these meetings too and I just have to address this new proposal that I saw members of the city council really sort of getting excited about and it sounds exciting and that's this idea that they're going to donate the

3:10:39historic structure there to the city or to some non-profit and create a park there you know what started out though um with Mr camposangas and his slide I think says he would explore the possibility and then when I think you saw the excitement generated by that then it

3:10:57became oh yes we'll do this sure we'll do that this is the first time this has ever been raised um and he also still said well if we develop it into a residence then these things would apply so again I I really think that the city council needs to be cautious um when it comes to considering uh this

3:11:16proposal as there's no guarantee that this will happen and I think I'm extremely skeptical because at the April 16th meeting one of the Commissioners specifically asked Mr Campos have you considered reducing the size of the project and for those of you that have

3:11:33listened to that hearing his response was and I know I'm out of time so I'll wrap up was it just wouldn't pencil so it was clear that as of April 16th he needed every single unit to make a profit on that site now all of a sudden they're willing to put time work and

3:11:50money into the historic structure and then give that away to me I think the council needs to be very thank you cautious of that thank you hey next speaker Pamela Austin followed by Marlon arijitiga good evening my name is Pam Austin I live at [address removed] and I've

3:12:19been a resident of El Cerrito for about eight years El Cerrito has an impressive history of environmental action and I've spent many hours promoting those efforts and it's a point of pride in my community I want to make it clear that I support El Cerrito's strategy to increase the

3:12:39density of the population and to capitalize on the location of the two BART stations and the AC Transit bus hub to promote mass transit and reduce traffic on the roads obviously this is going to require an increase in housing I'm also aware that El Cerrito needs to

3:12:58increase the tax base to remain solvent and continue to deliver a high level of service with those things in mind though I have to object to the Elm Street development and my objections are around setback height and the creek as to setback there are many multi-family buildings in El Cerrito

3:13:22especially in the lower heel area these buildings coexist in the neighborhoods because they're set back from the sidewalks they have front yards and their placement on the lot mirrors the single family homes um in this development what is termed a setback appears to me more like a

3:13:44barrier frankly with the fence and the trees and it does not create the same visual sort of situation um as to the creek the Creek Rec the creek ordinance recognizes that a creek is much more than just moving water from one place to another a creek is an ecosystem intended

3:14:07to filter water and support wildlife plants and animals the treatment of the creek at this development does none of those things and I find it surprising um that El Cerrito would take this direction when other communities are working hard to Daylight their creeks

3:14:26and the height of the building in the middle of the block it visually dominates the other residences an important point I want to make is that I suspect that if this project goes through that it will increase resistance of Neighbors in other neighborhoods to Future developments so I recognize a lot

3:14:46of hard work has gone into this design but I I ask you is this really the precedent that you want to send to set and I ask that you reconsider this project please thank you thank you uh Miss arachiga followed by Kathleen McKinley she's still in the room doesn't seem to be so Kathleen McKinley

3:15:17followed by Dan cloak I'm Kathleen McKinley I live at [address removed] as some of you may know I was a planning commissioner in El Cerrito for 12 years I was on the Planning Commission when the zoning ordinance was amended and the creek protection overlay ordinance was

3:15:38added this project as proposed is exactly the kind of development that the creek protection overlay ordinance was intended to prevent that embodied that ordinance embodied a policy that's book it's expressed not only in the zoning ordinance but also in the city's General plan which is the city's

3:16:02Constitution after all that promotes protection of creeks and bars development that smack up on top of creeps like the one that's in this proposed project those of you who know may also know that I am not opposed to high density development or high development or God

3:16:21forbid you know Transit oriented development I love those things but not every lot that's fairly close to the BART station is an appropriate site for for that kind of development when it compromises another important value of the city which is in this case protection of an important natural

3:16:40resource I was really stunned when the Planning Commission initially approved this and I regretted that I hadn't been more actively involved but it galvanized me and I was gratified when the Planning Commission changed Direction I think they came to their senses when they

3:16:56realized that the zoning ordinance simply doesn't allow this you cannot have the kind of structures that are in this in the creek setback under the zoning ordinance unless you can make four specific findings that allow exceptions to the flat prohibition of roof structures within

3:17:18this in within the 30-foot setback you cannot make those findings in my opinion and I'm a lawyer so I kind of know about these things if you want to know what the exceptions are that the findings are you have to make you have to look at section 19.12.060 subsection e

3:17:38you must be able to make all four of those findings not just one all four of them and you have to be able to make those findings in a way that will just withstand judicial scrutiny because I'm here to tell you right now if you approve this project in violation of the

3:17:56city's ordinance you're courting a potential action for a writ a petition for a writ of mandate asking the court to order the city to actually enforce its own ordinances if you as Guardians of the public interest approve this project as it's currently proposed then the message that you're

3:18:18sending is the city will enforce its own ordinances except when it won't and that's not a message you want to send thank you Dan cloak followed by Robin Mitchell Robin Mitchell followed by Clay Smith thank you so my name is Robin Mitchell I live at [address removed] in El Cerrito there are

3:19:20many reasons that this is not an appropriate development for this site but I will concentrate on the fact that in order for this project to go forward the city of El Cerrito must Grant relief to the developer from the setback restrictions required by the city's own

3:19:32Creek ordinance reading from the staff report to the Planning Commission dated 319-2014 it states one of the goals of the creek protection overlay district is to preserve enhance and restore natural drainage ways as part of the storm drainage system minimizing any

3:19:47alterations or structures within the natural stream channel and stream bed in support of that goal the creek protection overlay prohibits placement of fill or any other obstruction and establishes a minimum 30-foot setback from the top of the creek Bank the report continues the new

3:20:02construction is proposed to be seven foot eight inches from the center line of the creek and the relocated historic building is proposed to be five foot five inches away from the center line which means that the construction is even closer from the top of the stream

3:20:17Bank probably between three and five feet the staff report also notes that the surface water feature lacks characteristics of a natural riparian Corridor and provides only marginal habitat value this reasoning is immaterial because of the stated goals of the creek ordinance

3:20:31to enhance and restore natural drainage ways this project compromises the creek by building right next to it because there is so little natural habitat in urban areas it is vitally important to enhance and restore it whenever the opportunity arises is worth noting that one of the plan of

3:20:46planning commissioner Pines concerns about the proximity to the creek was flooding of the buildings in a high water event another reason for the 30-foot setback I ask why does the city of El Cerrito have a creek ordinance if it is not going to enforce it the creek ordinance

3:20:59was created for a reason for the difficult situations where there was a conflict between preserving a creek and development so that when there is that conflict the creek is protected the creek should be enhanced and restored to a vibrant ecosystem much as the creek

3:21:12and pond at the bottom of Canyon Trail Park have been which shows that even a small area can provide significant habitat the pond at Canyon Trail Park is a concrete lined Culvert that has been filled with sediment and planted with Nets with native water-loving plants it

3:21:25is abundant with frogs dragonflies providing natural mosquito control butterflies and innumerable other Critters all within the equivalent of the 30-foot setback on either side of the creek this restoration shown in photos at the end of this letter shows what is possible at the elm property

3:21:40there was a factual error in the March 19 2014 staff report which says that the creek exits the property to the Southwest where it passes under a fence and enters a culvert beneath the adjoining property this is incorrect as the creek continues in an open Channel

3:21:54Through the property to the West covered by a wooden walkway which I have shown in attached photos the creek also Daylights under the Ohlone path just north of Blake Street where two wooden bridges cross it see the attached photos I visited it yesterday and the creek was

3:22:07flowing nicely this means that in a four block length from Elm Street to the Illinois path the creek is culverted underground in only one block between Liberty and Lexington this is a functioning Creek that can be restored in sections to provide vital ecosystem

3:22:22services for these reasons I do not think that the city council should recommend relaxing the setbacks contained in the El Cerrito Creek ordinance you have the power to create something truly unique and Visionary on this site and I urge you to do that and not just blindly follow the mode of

3:22:39development for development's sake thank you Clay Smith followed by howdy Gowdy good evening thanks for giving me the opportunity to address you my name is Clay Smith I live at [address removed] uh one story duplex we have a very tiny backyard maybe about 10 by 10 feet concrete floor but it's a

3:23:17little garden and the little chunk of sky I can look out at night is about will be about 90 feet away from where this proposed residential unit is going to be placed it's going to block out the only Sky we got out and back I'm a park ranger I work up at Wildcat

3:23:41Canyon so I have a pretty nice backyard up there but I'm very familiar with creeks as well I've traversed that Creek many many times and I've got the poison oak to prove it I've also got a bad shoulder for rotator cuff surgery next week there's some things I was at the March

3:24:0119th Planning Commission meeting here I believe it was March 19th and uh the tone it it's it's very different being here now as as it was then some things have changed in in kind of a strange way but some things that come up which kind of Boggle my mind is just as examples we're talking about

3:24:25Airborne dust during construction so we're going to water that down well you know that water has to go somewhere and there's a creek right there we talk about providing privacy for the Montessori School which is just two houses up from us so yeah we'll build this eight foot tall

3:24:46privacy fence I mean every solution to this thing just keeps adding to the problem we're going to dump 15 to 17 extra cars out into the neighborhood I can tell you if you stand at the intersection of Blake and Elm around five o'clock in the evening it's a mad house it's like the

3:25:07Indy 500. I can't park in front of my house when I come home from work because of all the BART Riders cars that Park on my street I have to park a couple houses down and then later in the evening get in my car and park it back in front of my place if the spot opens up anyway

3:25:29um we have a 60-foot open Creek Baxter Creek that runs through this property and you have a historic house right next to it to me that that's just golden uh you don't have very many places like that that's incredible that's an incredible resource and I I really think it needs to be

3:25:50looked at more closely than just plopping this development smack dab in there all those residences around there are single story residences most of them and for that thing to go up in my backyard uh it gets like I said I don't have a backyard anymore thank you anyway

3:26:12thank you all very much appreciate it good luck with your surgery thank you howdy Gowdy followed by Linda shahabi hi council members uh mayor Abelson my name is howdy Gowdy I live at [address removed] so I've had a chance to to speak all ready but um I do want to speak more

3:26:41from my uh personal views than specifically the the appellate's views so I think this is really about you know the big picture and and um you know what what the guidance we want to follow really is I mean this the city has some good you know policies on the books that that can guide you in this

3:27:09this matter and it's it's really which ones you're gonna choose to to look at and and how you're going to um Envision how this this city is going to develop um no one is you know arguing against the transit oriented development that's that's being proposed um there are you know Transit oriented

3:27:32multi-use zones available for you know hundreds of units to be built right now and you know that would be great um this particular uh project needs to be looked in its context it needs to be looked in the context of where it resides in the zoning structure along

3:27:50the boundary where it quickly transitions to less dense spaces and in the context of the special resources that are on this site this is a really unique site ever since I've lived in El Cerrito I've passed by this house and really admired it you know it's it's a

3:28:05it's the one you know remaining uh glimpse of what you know sort of the bucolic past of El Cerrito looked like and it's not just the house you can't just cram the house in the corner and still have that feeling it is the whole site it is you know just the the openness of it it is you know it's

3:28:25really you know it's the whole package now you know development being what it is I may not have my way that that can live on just the way it is but we certainly don't have to make exceptions to shoehorn more than really is being you know prescribed for that kind of area

3:28:46so um there's a lot of information I hope you'll glance through just the the photos at the back of my presentation uh the ones that were in the submitted packet were black and white so you couldn't see them um my you know little you know heartfelt uh comment to go back

3:29:06to the um you know the kids in the future was when I left the city hall you know asking about the appeal process I went by um the little Tot Lot on uh the eloni path on my bike next to the BART station and I saw these kids playing in the mud in the ditch and it's like they're

3:29:25having a great time they're they're being kids having fun and I couldn't help feeling sorry for them not because you know they were playing in the mud they were having great time playing in the mud but I felt sorry for them because of what we've taken from them

3:29:38what they don't know they don't have you know the creeks in this city disappeared in a lifetime in 70 years we went from miles of riparian habitat to nearly nothing and you really need to think about it your own Creek ordinance is there to reverse that it is the compass

3:29:56the direction saying we've had enough of this we're going to restore our Creeks because that's what's going to make this community a place that people want to live you can have Transit oriented density but you have to do it in other places the the unique resources need to

3:30:12be protected thank you thank you um before we move on we need to extend the meeting I moved to extend till 11 pm second all in favor please say aye aye aye any objection in the abstention motion carries unanimously next speaker please thank you um Linda shahabi followed by Amy Cody

3:30:38hello I'm Linda shahabi um owner along with um frog shahabi who's our business manager of Keystone Montessori school and I brought tonight a petition which you should have all gotten a copy of of 62 families which would be here tonight except they had to put their little

3:30:58children to bed at seven or eight o'clock um so the petition that they signed said we the families of Keystone Montessori School a vast majority of whom are residents of El Cerrito have signed below to state that we are strongly opposed to the 1715 Elm Street condominium project which would border

3:31:18our school because a the project is oversized we've already talked about that b the project is too high 42 feet we've already talked about thought see the project would endanger the creek which should have a 30-foot setback we've already talked about that D the

3:31:38project lacks a requirement of daily monitoring of toxic emissions we haven't talked enough about that toxic emissions are things that you can't see it's not that we're going to be outside in the schoolyard and notice toxic emissions coming over the fence so the health of 60 plus children is

3:31:58would be at risk with any project that goes next to a school so I would like to suggest that the city of El Cerrito adopt a policy of projects that are right next to a school requiring monitoring of toxic emissions because these children are very sensitive at this age and we're not

3:32:22going to be able to tell when the air gets toxic and when we need to take the children inside if we don't have those monitors and there's several companies right in this area that will do that so that's my suggestion also I want to point out that the city of El Cerrito's

3:32:43findings for approval for any project is that the location size design and operating characteristics of the proposed development will be harmonious and compatible with and will not adversely affect the living livability or appropriate development of abutting properties and surrounding neighborhoods

3:33:03so this is one of the qualities that you all need to think about whether this project will fit in with the surrounding neighborhood we believe the project is not harmonious and will affect the livability of the surrounding neighborhood thank you thank you Amy Cody followed by Stephanie Klein and

3:33:26then Mary godella mayor Abelson and the rest of the council this is a very interesting place for me to stand on the side of the podium I am speaking as Amy Cody a resident of El Cerrito a happy resident I live at [address removed] I'm also a planning commissioner and I

3:33:47am not uh I'm usually one to sort of be a little more scientific than I have been on this particular project but I found myself feeling like I wanted to um I felt let's see what what I really wanted to say was I grew up in inner city Chicago and I actually do not know anything really

3:34:18about creeks I don't know really anything about um uh a lot of the things that these very wise people are talking about but what I do know is that this property um is I I basically agree 100 with the appeal and I'm finding myself being very finding myself very nervous up here for

3:34:43some reason um and those of you at the at the commission meetings did not hear me as such um yeah I I'm I can't I'm not going to continue I'm my brain is going faster than my mouth um but I guess I would just urge you as I did my fellow Commissioners not to approve the project as it is my basic

3:35:06line was we could do better um and um you know I would like to see the studies done that were suggested by the appeal team I don't think that they were done uh maybe part of them and some of them many of them in some way but not sufficiently um and um I really do want Mr Biggs to make uh Mr

3:35:29Biggs to make a bunch of money I think El Cerrito is a great place to do that and we'll be continue to be um but uh there is a better way to do that for all of us and I guess I'm I hope that made some sort of sense I really just wanted to be present and I'd like to yeah I'll just I'll just end

3:35:54there so thanks for your patience and letting me speak Stephanie Klein followed by Mary godella I I'm Stephanie Klein and I live on Canyon Trail in Hagen in El Cerrito I live uh right next to a botched uh uh development that um I just I'm very nervous but I had to

3:36:22say something about how El Cerrito hasn't taken care of the Neighbors in a building situation um and I just hate to see that El Cerrito is caving in to people that are building these huge houses or you know a bunch of houses on a small lot is not the way El Cerrito is we paid a lot of money for

3:36:51our house so that we have a yard and some space and I just feel like uh any empty lot which there are only a few they're just jamming um as much tax dollar into it as they can and we have had a lot of problems with the the build next door and really have had little support

3:37:18for the neighbors and that's it thank you Mary godella followed by Anna basilas and Jennifer Moran good evening I support all these people that have talked against this development at 1715 Elm Street I live at [address removed] I've lived in El Cerrito for over 40 years

3:37:45um I don't have any personal stake and I'm not a member of a family group or of the Elm Street group or the Appellate group and I hope you receive my letter that I spoke to the Planning Commission about on May 21st I noticed somebody said that hers wasn't in there so I just

3:38:01want to reiterate that I do not support this project it doesn't reflect our values of a green City our logo is a tree in a hill not a BART station and a giant apartment complex thank you anabacillus followed by Jennifer Moran good evening my name is Anna basayahe I

3:38:29live at [address removed] I've been a resident off and on of El Cerrito for 11 years I'm a parent of a child at Keystone Montessori and I want to express my opposition to the project at 715 Elm Street I have to say that many of the concepts that were shared at the

3:38:47Planning Commission meeting on April 16th as well as this evening are really hard for me to grasp but I do want to express um my support of the opposition and I feel like there is significant opposition from the residents of the city and I just want to urge the city

3:39:06council to listen to the residents you represent and to not approve this project as it stands thank you Jennifer Moran followed by Franklin Leung hi my name is Jennifer Moran I live at [address removed] had to stop and think about it for a minute 1715 stuck in my head my property sits directly

3:39:29behind this project there's a couple things that I love about the home that I live in it's my husband's childhood home he's been there 42 years he's watched single family houses go down on Liberty Street and condos go up all the big condos that are in our area are from East Liberty down to San Pablo

3:40:05Avenue there is nothing this massive on Elm Street the one apartment two apartment complexes that are on Elm Street are two-story buildings and the one on the far end towards cutting Blends in to the houses that are on the rise of that Hill so they blend this thing is not going to blend

3:40:32we've stood on top of cutting and we've imagined this 42-foot building or 39-foot building however tall you want to call it it's too tall there's a 26 foot tall duplex next door to me and I think that's too big and you want to put something almost twice as big as that in our backyard

3:40:58it's going to disturb their shade it's going to disturb the shading of the houses across the street and it will affect my shading in my backyard not as much as them because I have a very deep backyard but it's it's just not aesthetically sound for that neighborhood if you wanted to

3:41:22put something like this huge thing somewhere put it at my Bart in that parking lot where they're storing Portables it would fit perfectly there it would look great next to Del Norte Plaza you want to put something it looks it would look great on San Pablo Avenue

3:41:40where everybody else can enjoy it I don't want to enjoy it I don't want to look at it in my backyard I don't want five or six people having a view in my backyard I could handle a two-story building because the trees will pretty much cover anything they could see but I like my

3:42:00privacy the people next door give me my privacy they keep their Shades drawn and they respect my privacy I don't know what people in a three-story complex are going to do for my privacy I have a child he's a teenager but I have a child and him and his friends like to come over

3:42:20and hang out in the backyard I don't want people looking in my backyard constantly so I request that this is denied thank you thank you the last speakers that I have is Franklin long if there's if there's anyone else that wants to speak now would be the time to get your slip

3:42:39in my name is Franklin Leon and I have lived on Manor Circle for close to 40 years I just want to comment that since living here the traffic on the LG has gone from bad to worse it's difficult to drive out of manner Circle and traffic coming up and down Elm Street and then we could

3:43:08keep clear parking marking painted on the street many drivers tend to ignore that I did a survey on the traffic at different day and time but still only the um but I will give one example on a Monday morning for one and a half hour from 8 to 9 30 873 cars were going toward Blake Street

3:43:32and 316 cars were going the opposite direction toward key and cutting Boulevard totaling 1189 cars that morning in the afternoon from 4 30 pm to 6 p.m you got a total of 511 cars going to toward Blake Street and 618 cars going toward key and cutting Boulevard for a total of 1 119 car hours I have

3:43:57submitted a few photographs of traffic to each of you for review when Summit schools start there will be more cars traveling up and down Elm Street between cutting and play I respectively request that these and other comments may hear tonight opposing this project will be

3:44:17taken into consideration and conclude that project should not go forward uh who would like to talk to you about the uh the photograph exhibit DL the first photograph so double line is in front of the brics property and um I I don't know if that's going to continue with the double lines

3:44:41and then exhibit one of these cars driving toward Blake Street and and this in the morning actually I I made a mistake on my um camera the time it's a 2035u minus 12 that is 8 35 in the morning okay the photo showed car driving toward Blake Street from Hill Street Key and

3:45:20cutting Boulevard at times caused like a long parking lot backing past Manor Circle intersection from Blake Street the last photo of exhibit if you if the cards want to make a left turn if you look at the exhibit and it's near Blake Street and there's a double line and if if a car going to turn to

3:45:45the condo is going to take it be a traffic jam because that's a long line of cars coming the other way and exhibit two you're actually out of time if you could wrap up real quickly please okay exhibit two is the card going the opposite direction which is in the afternoon and if you could see then

3:46:12exhibit three is the um a truck parking on that pavement saying keep clear and if you see a let's see exhibit to the first photograph and this is where that the truck is parking uh keep clear there are about eight cars in front of them so that's the reason why I stopped there

3:46:41thank you okay thank you very much Sherry Sue followed by Naomi McPherson and these are the final slips that I have hi I'm Sherry um I live at [address removed] I'm the administrative assistant at Keystone Montessori school I'm opposed to this project a lot of people said a lot of

3:47:03the things that I agree with but I think growing up in El Cerrito um I guess I remember playing outside a lot as a kid and I taught infants preschool Pre-K Toddlers and I just thinking about the creek and how what you picture a creek to be I think with building this project we

3:47:30wouldn't take full advantage of what we could make it I think it's surrounding a lot of schools that they could really take advantage of I guess maybe helping restore it or if you go to like Arlington Park I see a lot of the kids at our annual picnic like they love

3:47:48catching the tadpoles it's like just being in nature and seeing nature you don't really see that a lot in schools nowadays and just the placement of where the creek is I think that we could benefit a lot from it for our kids that's it thank you thank you Naomi McPherson

3:48:08this is the this is the last speaker yes mayor thank you hello I'm Naomi mcverus and I reside at [address removed] and I'm glad I came to this meeting this is the third meeting and listening to everything tonight I'm I think that and also before I've walked past the um the lot and I

3:48:39just can't envision 14 units in that small space but the other thing most importantly since I've lived at this residence on Blake Street for 10 years coming up in September I I too have always admired that property and especially because it does have that Creek running through it and that's the

3:49:02only um it brings back memories of where I was raised in Wisconsin on a reservation where I was able to run the whole summer go go through the woods going through the Wolf River and that's a really valuable asset that yes your grandkids your kids don't have that

3:49:27in the city life of the city life but that's the only thing that you can preserve for them and it is beautiful you know it it like they said when you restore it and expound that Creek even walking over on the Ohlone trail behind Safeway I walked there and I said that's

3:49:48really nice to be able to walk just to see that Creek so I I honestly don't believe that putting a development there you know to generate revenues is really good for the long term and I I come from the Menominee tribe we've lost 10 million Acres that's a lot of land El

3:50:12Cerrito is losing their land and that Creek so that's something to think about thank you thank you um so now we will give the appellant an opportunity to do a five-minute rebuttal our usual orders to have the have the um appellant go before the applicant and the

3:50:55applicant last the applicant for the project okay so why don't we go switch if you don't mind you want me to switch yes and so that we'd have a I don't know um either way you'll both get heard okay well um like I said I mean all of us have invested a lot of time in this

3:51:26um frankly I mean I appreciate I'm really impressed how much you know research you've done in listening to the proceedings of the Planning Commission and and perusing this this dense document but um frankly I'm pretty nervous that you know at 11 o'clock um in a single meeting you're gonna make

3:51:46a decision of this magnitude um I mean I I wanted to be over with as as much as anyone else but I do want a good deliberative process and I I believe you know sort of the brown act requires that the business of the city be done in our witness and I would like to see you actually you know deliberate

3:52:08the various findings required for this and I don't actually want to be here all night so you can um you can kind of discuss amongst yourselves how you solve that problem but I think it was a mistake to schedule this as a single you know Marathon event um I really

3:52:24um I mean I feel strongly about this project I really want you to you know deeply consider what it means and I strongly urge you to um deny the project I really want you to actually think about what kind of partner you have with this developer and the development agreement because you

3:52:44know the track record is honestly quite questionable I mean this is an 11-year ordeal of trying to get something that would pass muster and they just haven't presented viable projects I mean they admitted themselves that they pursued for many years a project that simply wouldn't meet the

3:53:05the modern environmental standards of not covering over creeks they're they're trying to do a 20th century development of you know too much imposition on natural resources in a time when we've decided we have different values and you've yourself have voted for those values I mean at

3:53:27least I think two of the council members before us were on the council when the creek ordinance was adopted and you voted for that um that protection so I really hope that you will stand up and and hold the standard of restorative you know Greek stewardship it's really important to the future of

3:53:49the city and the quality of life in the city there's plenty of places that are appropriate for for higher density this just isn't one of them and you know I think the inconsistencies with what the developer has presented you know that they need every last unit to make a

3:54:07profit but Ono will give you you know this thing for free just let us do our development that inconsistency is really worrying to me it it doesn't seem like we're dealing with a good intention a a fair actor for the city's best interest and I think you should really consider

3:54:25whether you want to sign a open-ended 10-year agreement that oh yeah we'll we'll develop this property you know this this just isn't the way the business of the city should be done and I hope you will have a higher standard for how this really unique and valuable

3:54:42resource is treated I mean I think that's how I would really ended is that you know this property is one of a kind you know it's just you know there's plenty of paved over parking lots on San Pablo that are screaming out for something better to happen but this isn't the place to destroy a piece of

3:55:01history and environmental um you know opportunity this this is just the wrong place for this project so I thank you now it's the applicants rebuttal of five minutes foreign thank you I'm just going to go down a list of things that were brought up and just say I'm going to keep it brief solar panels

3:55:30they work they never work before in the last five years they really work they're affordable and they work we're putting them on well I just finished a 30 million dollar School in Hayward and we have the roof with elements built all around it it's completely filled

3:55:46with solar panels it's almost Net Zero for energy usage it works affordable housing that was raised condos you have very few for sale multi-family product here condos are by their nature affordable homes go for seven eight hundred thousand dollars a year condos sell for

3:56:07300 to 400 000 in that range somewhere so they are by their nature affordable uh the reports are not being advantageous to the uh to the project the fact the the claim that the reports we made we're asked to prepare engineering reports Hydraulics reports biological reports assessments by staff

3:56:28they're vetted by staff and the city these are Consultants that work throughout the Bay Area and they're reputable Consultants they do a good job we happen to have a project that the reports that have been written traffic and biological stuff that that does well with the design we proposed so

3:56:51neighborhood context um question about did we do a streetscape showing all the existing homes typically we would do that but then we would also show uh the we would put a red line on it and show the proposed according to the the density and the height limit the future build

3:57:10out within maybe 10 15 20 years what that would be we didn't do that in this case we know that uh the neighborhood's sensitive to the bulk and height they're in transition we're one of the first in on Elm Street with a three-story a three-story building but the the

3:57:26Project's been zoned for 30 40 years for high density and the rest of the block will develop eventually with that over time development agreement I talked about that we're trying to do a development agreements rather than the standard two-year approval and then one year

3:57:47extension and then you're starting all over again the creek the rock walls I heard a lot of Tesla unite that we're destroying the creek we're trying to save it and it's the current status the current state we're open to Restoration ideas we're open to that we want we want to make this a positive

3:58:07venue so if if some of the rock wall were removed and the and it was allowed to flow out we have no objection to that and that's part of the process but I do believe the stone that is on the creek is historic and it is it is from that time and we're willing to save it and to

3:58:28enhance it toxic emissions I talked about that project oversized uh just walk the neighborhood it's dupe it's single family one and two-story dwellings it's duplexes triplexes apartment buildings two three four story throughout the whole neighborhood very close within 800 feet of our of our

3:58:49development so we're a quarter mile for Bart we're a Transit oriented development we think we have the right mix and solution for the property it's 14 units a question came up about me being disingenuous at the Planning Commission and talking about cost they asked me I don't like to talk about cost

3:59:08because it's it's irrelevant right now we're talking about project and it's context density Etc but we we would like to have 14 units of housing approved for sale that would help subsidize the cost of repairing the historic home whether we put it up for sale or we donate it and we are

3:59:31absolutely 100 percent willing should you find a a public entity here in the city a non-profit that's willing to take it and maintain it we're willing to fix it and donate it not not maybe possibly but we're willing to do it but we need to have somebody come forward and and accept it and we'll

4:00:00take every Avenue that it takes to find that that's it that's my rebuttal and uh please vote for our project thank you very much okay so now at this point we will um see if there are any Council questions of the appellant you'll actually need to extend the meeting at the end oh excuse me

4:00:25throwing this on the council's part to extend the meeting yes I'd like to extend the meeting to five minutes to 1105.

4:00:35deliberate is the idea then being that we would extend to another meeting date correct okay so there's a motion to extend for five minutes but I didn't hear a second can I just ask one question of staff is there any problem with that in terms of any planning timelines that we would

4:00:53deliberate at an in our next session I know that we have a lot on our agenda in terms five minutes first and then we can second the extension of five minutes all in favor please say aye aye aye any opposition any abstention motion I'm opposed I don't think it's long enough okay long

4:01:13enough to answer the question that we're about okay um so we have I believe so there's one um yeah I know I need to record it correctly though it abstain you abstain no you voted no okay a motion passed uh with one no vote from council member Friedman um okay can I say no yes okay in the

4:01:39five minutes um the reason why my only problem with deliberating this at another time is it's likely to take another four hours um you know we'll hear the same testimony from both sides to some extent and we won't necessarily learn anything new between now and then but I do agree

4:02:01that 11 o'clock at night is not a time when we're all thinking as clearly as we would like to be for this important decision so we have a lot of important things to do this is the month when we do the city's budget and we've scheduled extra meetings for that um you know in July we only have one

4:02:21meeting scheduled so if we waited until July maybe that would be the time to do it but uh I'm not convinced we're going to get any new information that we don't have I'm just thinking along the lines of council member Lyman that we could probably think clear I I agree

4:02:39um the whole goal of extending this meeting another three and a half minutes would be to close public uh close the uh public hearing and we if I'm looking at Council we would not need to open public hearing again so the only thing we would have to conduct when we came back would

4:02:55be our own deliberations that is entirely a possibility and it will be up to the city council to actually enforce that so we do have to get though through the council questions of the good point Grant Pond I believe right is that correct we have a question about the

4:03:12timing of about it moving to another night what's the question is there any problem from a planning timeline in terms of any commitments that have been made to take action or not take action I would assume not but can you could I suggest I know that you've just just extended the meeting

4:03:31for five minutes can you take a extend the meeting slightly longer take a five minute recess because if you're going to continue IT staff needs to figure out when in July it's actually possible to hold this hold a continuation of this item we don't have to decide that right

4:03:45this minute do we oh if we're continuing it we don't have to set the date right now do we you don't have to what I'm what I'm hearing councilmember Friedman is that staff doesn't want to do it in July June they concur with you that June is too full and that if we are going to

4:04:02continue it would move to July and therefore Miss Kavanaugh your your response to council member benassini's answer is maybe right because July might actually be problematic is that is that what I'm is that all what I'm hearing with all the response there is there is one

4:04:21meeting in July and the agenda is full right now current schedule fine I will move to extend the meeting to 11 20 as long as we get up a few minute break in here so with with the purpose being that we would do our questions during this period no that 11 20 would give the

4:04:44break would give staff the opportunity to figure out whether it's a June meeting or a July meeting um it only needs five minutes he said hearing we haven't done yet and we could do that maybe right now and then we can actually close the public hearing fine let's Okay well during all in the

4:05:06same period you start to extend yes so you've made a motion is there a second okay motion second to extend until 11 20. correct okay all in favor please say aye aye in the opposition in the abstention motion carries unanimously okay so I would like to continue while the City

4:05:24attorney figures out the timing uh I would like to uh move to council questions of appellant I think we were hoping that that you'd actually recess for five minutes while we figure that out since since the city manager the development services manager and I all need to figure this out we'd

4:05:46like to be able to um be be paying attention for questions for the applicant to repellent yes oh okay so you want five minutes okay so we will okay so we won't be able to close the public hearing then right between 11.

4:06:05we'd just like to be just like a few minutes okay why don't you go take your five minutes thank you foreign thank you I think we need sound there do we have sound yes okay have we come up with a date for the continuation we're hoping that June 23rd would work for your schedules

4:18:46um believe me we just had a lot of hashing over over July and June dates and thought that that we thought we could actually bring this back sooner rather than waiting and get it resolved and the 23rd was the was seemed to be the best date to do that for for the for the rest of

4:19:04the schedule that's already for all the meetings that are already scheduled for the council well keeping in mind that the 24th is a is a fallback for the budget if we don't get it done on this 17th uh Mr Hannon the dates that are already scheduled for us to meet yes um

4:19:20we're meeting next Tuesday can you use the date and like give me a chance to find to find it it says we're meeting on the ninth here the ninth and the 17th holding the 24th and the 30th reserved the ninth is a week today it's not a Tuesday yes Monday we grew up on the 17th and

4:19:42then what no that would be Monday the 9th the 17th the 24th and the 30th Monday the 9th right okay okay and now we're adding the 20 23 Rd which was which was previously considered as a as a night we always had the night I didn't have that one 23rd is a Monday right yes

4:20:10and it would be a special meeting and this would be our only topic yes that's correct and if we can conclude um the last piece of making sure that you have had an opportunity to act any ask any remaining questions of the applicant and appellant then we can close the public hearing and simply pick

4:20:26up that the meeting with Council deliberations meeting on the 23rd would start at seven whatever you want seven so we can't with withhold our questions to the appellant and to the applicant on the 23rd so we're gonna do that right now aren't we requires us to open it

4:20:49I I mean I think that it would be you don't you can do you can do whichever way you want but um you will at that point I mean you could open the public hearing only to ask them questions and then close it um okay it's up to you about how you want to handle that so we could ask the

4:21:09questions open the public hearing to our questions only with no public comment is that correct the do we have so we can I have I have like five I have about three or four I'm all questioned out yeah I'm done okay okay I think I am too unless these questions and their answers yeah

4:21:31okay so we will I will I would I would I would urge you to ask the questions tonight and simply pick up with deliberations on at the next meeting exactly okay is there a motion and uh for 15 minutes so we can hear okay that would be until uh all in favor aye aye any opposition any abstentions

4:21:57motion carries unanimously Rebecca you want to start yes um Mr Campos there you are okay um it's such a time can you tell me whether or not or to what extent a design was considered which held the 30-foot setback from the creek and if so what did that design look like uh we did

4:22:19not uh consider designing a held a 30-foot setback from the creek could pretty much uh makes the property you know very tiny and uh so we didn't we didn't consider that would it be reasonable to assume it would look something like the historic house and one other single family house pretty

4:22:34much okay um and is Mr wood still here oh we get another home there maybe two yes okay is Mr wood still here okay the The Creeks have been discussed at length and I wanted to give you another opportunity to talk about um we we've talked about what's there we've talked about what the proposed

4:22:55project will look like and now just another opportunity to talk about what it could be so I've I've had some discussions via email with maybe staff or maybe others that indicated that the proposed project setback which is narrow and Broad and narrow and Broad in

4:23:10different places provide some enhancement to the creek I guess I'm also it seemed like in some of the responses I got to emails there was an indication that an additional setback would provide little if any additional benefit in terms of habitat and other Cree other values that are associated

4:23:30with creeks is there any additional comment you'd like to make on that given some of the additional testimony you've heard tonight well I would agree with what you just said okay um in a setting like this we could plant the entire lot it would be a lovely park and it would attract the typical types

4:23:50of migratory and non-migratory birds that you would expect in your neighborhood you Cooper's Hawks you're going to get some Red shouldered Hawks if you've got trees tall enough with a large enough canopy you can attract all of those things but nonetheless you're still surrounded by

4:24:07streets by Lights by predators and by people and a lot of pavement there's also not that much uh foraging landscape in the immediate vicinity granted there's lots of grassland up in the hills where you can get so owls can go and migr fine prey up in the hills but nonetheless you're basically

4:24:30creating a park so I would ask what is the purpose of the setback in a confined context generally on riparian setbacks we talk about the beneficial uses of the habitat and how it affects the Aquatic environment so that is uh limiting sediment infiltr input into the creek

4:24:57minimizing contaminants moving into the uh into the water course shading of a stream which is vitally important for streams that do have migratory fish species in them like steelhead so anything that keeps the water water temperatures down and then of course all

4:25:16the other things that I talked about you know Ripples and pools and root wads and things that provide places for amphibians reptiles and fish to to take refuge in so in terms of riparian setback we talk about how does it affect the Aquatic environment so planting

4:25:35trees farther out in the tree a lot farther away from the creek is not really directly benefiting the creek per se so then that brings us back to the wildlife discussion it's primarily going to be bird species that you would not normally expect in a urbanized setting

4:25:55so Western Scrub Jays you know you might get western screech owls in there a whole Oak tit Mouse Chestnut back chickadees all of the things that you're probably already seeing in people's backyards now so the increase in benefit from having a much broader a a wider vegetated Corridor along that

4:26:19Creek I think they're a minimum minimal benefits okay increased benefits thank you and my last question is for Mr Campos I believe I wanted to hear whether or not we talked about the idea of a financial feasibility analysis being submitted as part of public projects like affordable housing

4:26:36projects one has not been submitted on this project do you have any sense as to whether or not um the project could be built with two homes on it while preserving the historic home and restoring the cree providing some funding to restore the creek sure you could you could build two

4:26:56homes on the property but you'd we'd be back here before you we'd need a general plan Amendment because it's zoned 20 to 35. no so we could build two homes on the property I mean from a financial or do you have any idea from the financial perspective um foreign

4:27:15sixty he paid a lot for the land so we he's into it quite a bit over the last 11 years uh you might you might be able to sell the homes Break Even lose a little money something like that sell the homes and restore the house uh and we you restore the house but yeah it's it's a tough one it's a tough

4:27:35one to make work financially but with you know with all all the stuff restoring the home is expensive we've we've had reports done there's a couple hundred thousand dollars of termite and structural damage it's an old it's 100 years old and so you got to fix that put

4:27:50it into it you got to put on a foundation you got to put all new electrical all new panels all new all new mechanical systems all new plumbing and then you got to hope to recoup that cost and when you sell it so thank you and I'm sorry I'm cutting you off I'm just using more than my time so I let

4:28:06councilmember Bridges go question uh yeah my question was um would you would you be amenable to considering a a plan development agreement for say two three four or five years um I can't speak for anybody would you be would you consider one for five years I think the city process I believe is

4:28:27you're entitled for two years and then you get an extension for one um that's that's typical am I right Margaret that's correct so we'd like you know just for insurance sake to have five years you know but uh we you know we I told you tonight we plan this is a good Market you said it right this is a

4:28:47good Market we plan if we get approval to go right to construction documents and uh pending our jarpa approvals and everything we plan to start construction immediately we'd like to um thank you oh no what can happen though I don't I can't predict next week the stock market or anything else so

4:29:04we're we're just trying to hedge our bets everybody's doing this on most projects we're trying to get a development agreement with a little more than the two and one year extension everybody is it's understandable thank thank you and then I just had one other comment about

4:29:18um a comment that was made by the public about the toxic air construction near schools or sensitive sites so I mean we have the high school is doing a big project right now and the students are in session and I believe that Portola was demolished when the Portables were

4:29:36still there and they were still that wasn't done just during the summer right so there was probably a lot of debris from that demolition do you know if the school districts actually partake in any of that airs quality studies so the requirements that are generated by the Bay Area Air Quality

4:29:55Management District applied pretty much region-wide basin-wide air base and wide so they they do wet down the soils they do scrub the roads they yes so they would be subject to those requirements what we're already doing or planning to do yes thank you but I'd like to go one step

4:30:12further on that question and this might be for Mr Biggs and Mr Campos on the days that they're applying the I think adhesives and paints and volatile Organics and items like that would they be willing to you know limit those days to potentially days that the school is

4:30:28not in session um because those those are the the toxics that can't be easily seen or Vision or measured um without their and there are there is equipment out there that can sample error and can sample air for these types of things um but but it's such a small site that

4:30:49uh it may not be practical to do that so I'm just wondering if if I don't know what it what um volatile organic compounds you're anticipating in your in your construction we use low vocs pretty much everywhere it's demanded by California we don't we can't for instance if you buy it just quickly if

4:31:07you buy cabinets here and you want the really good stains you ship them to Canada or you ship them to Nevada and then you bring them back you can't use the the really good stains and the good varnishes and finishes that you that everybody else can use they're not

4:31:20allowed in California so we're low VOC 100 everywhere um yeah we'd be willing to look at scheduling the painting we can do that on weekends I mean when the school's not open we can do it on holidays there's ways to do that uh but it's mostly all please let me talk you keep talking in my when I'm

4:31:38when I'm talking thanks sorry um we will we're willing to work with a contractor meet with a contractor meet with the community meet with the city and work out a schedule of when we would do certain things we've already said we'd take an hour a full hour for lunch when the kids are

4:31:55having lunch and nap time that we would take that make it a full hour most construction sites they take 20 30 minutes for lunch they keep working we said we would stop for an hour that cost money to do that thank you okay are we finished with the questions I am okay is there a motion to

4:32:15close the public hearing so moved is there second second okay motion by Friedman seconded by Lyman all in favor please say aye aye any opposition in the abstention motion carries unanimously the public hearing is closed um with that uh we will move to adjournment and I would like to take a

4:32:37moment if you don't mind uh to adjourn the meeting in memory of Ernie Del Simone this item is going to be continued I'm sorry we're continuing okay to a meeting on June 23rd at 7 pm okay celebrate motion if you could for the record that would be okay so is there a

4:32:57motion for that second okay motion by Lineman seconded by Friedman to continue the meeting until uh continue the item to June 25th the item until June 23rd at 7 pm thank you all in favor please say aye aye any opposition any extension motion carries unanimously

4:33:17so done and with that I'd like to um are we journey still Yes okay we nine I am adjourning the meeting until uh I'm joining this meeting in memory until till June 9th in memory of uh former council member and mayor Ernie Del Simone um who was on the city council in uh

4:33:50from 1972 to 1980 and he was the mayor of the city when we celebrated our 1976 Bicentennial um celebration and um I don't know if anyone else in this room knowing but I certainly did I imagine he did and maybe some other people did too he was a really wonderful

4:34:14man and he will he's a wonderful family and he will be sorely missed thank you all for coming and thank you for being uh such a very polite audience on what I know is a very sensitive subject thank you